Wild futures/monkey sanctuary

Pot....meet kettle. I find it faintly amusing that you have joined this site to troll us, yet think we are the obtuse ones who are posting with an agenda.

Well said

As for your claim that we believe zoos are considered Godlike..... try reading the many, many threads posted by members of this site criticising collections such as South Lakes, Twycross...... even ZSL London Zoo!

No but one of the owners of the collections you mention thinks he is GOD!!

As far as I am concerned yes I am pro-zoo and the keeping of animals by private keepers,but I am also anti the keeping of animals in bad conditions!!
 
Well this thread exploded into life didn't it. I can remember a programme on TV when it was the woolly monkey sanctuary and they were breeding very well - why the change
 
Well this thread exploded into life didn't it. I can remember a programme on TV when it was the woolly monkey sanctuary and they were breeding very well - why the change
I remember the old Woolly Monkey Sanctuary too, but only from my old zoo books. It always seemed to have a "we are not a zoo" vibe, but not in a bad way, just that they considered themselves different in that they only had one species and people were sort of visiting on the monkeys' terms. I don't think the owner had a problem with zoos, as some "sanctuary" owners do.

Their website says:
In 2001, The Monkey Sanctuary ended its breeding programme for the woolly monkeys as a result of many factors; not least that the chance of their release was becoming increasingly remote as more information became available on the implications of release and rehabilitation to the wild of ex-captive monkeys. The Sanctuary thus took the decision to return to rescuing from the pet trade, which was, and still is, thriving in the UK almost five decades after its inception.

I think there was probably also the element of woolly monkeys in captivity being a mix of subspecies (several now treated as full species by some authors) which meant the resulting populations were of no use for reintroductions to the wild.
 
My issue isn't really with the sanctuary it's with monkeyarm's lack of logic. S/he seems to have an issue with animals in captivity but then wants to volunteer at a place that keeps animals in captivity. I assume that a person who thought animals suffered in captivity wouldn't want to prolong that suffering and would prefer euthanasia.
oh yes, I understood that. The second portion of my post was really a general observation, not aimed at you. The first part was my answer to your post which I quoted, and it was simply to say that I don't think the original owner was particularly one of those "I am better than a zoo" types.
 
It would be great if those who keep their primates really well spoke up for themselves rather than just being alluded to when ever the subject of primates as 'pets' comes. If I had a hobby that was coconsistently being criticised I'd be doing all I could to improve its reputation and show that the marmoset in hamster cages are in the minority.
 
I can't be bothered reading all this, why are you arguing? It sounds like Monkey World in that it gives abused primates a second chance, ones who could never go back into the wild. As long as the primates are happy (like at Monkey World) then what's the big deal?
 
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I'm not arguing. I asked if anyone had volunteered but people got their knickers in a twist because Wild Futures speaks out against primate abuse in captivity
 
I'm not arguing. I asked if anyone had volunteered but people got their knickers in a twist because Wild Futures speaks out against primate abuse in captivity
I should have written 'why are you ALL arguing?' It's all rather petty.

Anyway, just do exactly what the staff tell you to in the exact way they tell you to do it, don't ever be tempted to break rules, always keep your radio on you, if a member of public asks you a question you can't answer then defer them rather than guessing... It's all pretty simple.
 
Thanks, I've been around wild animals all my life so know what happens when rules aren't followed and have a chunk of my calf missing to remind me if I ever get cocky. I was more wondering about the accommodation etc
 
Hi 'Monkeyarmy', I'm guessing you've not posted before and were just looking for advice on Wild Futures prior to going to volunteer there. I understand why the 'rescue and no-breed' ethos of a primate collection sounds really great, but I think that's like swearing to a lot of people on here, and you wouldn't have known that. Monkeyworld doesn't get so much biting criticism on this site I think because they participate in a number of EEP breeding programmes for some species alongside their rescue work. I understand that you didn't mean anything by your initial comment, other than it was a positive thing about Wild Futures, as opposed to being a zoo for monkeys.

IMHO the context I think is that there is some bitterness about the direction the Looe sanctuary took when it applied its 'no breed' policy to its successful (well, without the gender skew) breeding group of woolly monkeys, given how few institutions worldwide have really succeeded with this species, and the fact the captive population has been consolidated to so few collections able to maintian and breed them with any success (Monkey World interestingly being one of these). The consensus on this site seems to be in favour of maintaining captive populations, and particular value being given to species either dwindling in captivity or just rarely seen. Woolly monkeys fit this category I suspect. Had Wild Futures evolved from a sanctuary breeding capuchin monkeys and macaques (both of which came later), I think nobody would have cared whether they bred them or not.

The irony is, the captive woolly monkey population is not comprised of pure subspecific animals, but of many generic 'hybrids' between subspecies, and it is not possible to split off any pure stock as there aren't sufficient numbers to do this any longer in terms of genetic health. Some will argue this is why the Looe animals should have joined the EEP, but their numbers aren't so significant it would have allowed subspecific groupings to be formed out of them (plus, I assume there are mostly generic animals at Looe).

I personally don't agree with 'no-breed' for social animals, particularly primates, and favour very limited breeding to create a multi-generational group structure for, apart from anything else, behavioural enrichment and social cohesion. But with limited resources, a higher risk of infant rejection, and a desire to rescue further animals, I understand why Wild Futures might not want to do this with their capuchins or macaques. The woolly monkeys at Looe have had a gender skew in their birthrate towards males over the years (something that has happened at other collections, too), so it may have not been too long before a bachelor group remained anyway.

I have respect for Wild Futures and they have clearly committed to a long future working with primates at Looe since diversifying into other species. What will be interesting in the coming years is whether they continue to maintain the last few woolly monkeys in a smaller group as older animals die, or if there will come a time that they revisit their policy and rehome those individuals with a dynamic, thriving group at an EEP institution such as Apenheul or Monkey World?

I'm aware the sanctuary tried to send two of its adult male woollys back to the wild in the 1990s. I don't know what the outcome of this was, but I think it was the early stirrings of a change in direction for the sanctuary, and appeared to have been abandoned (I imagine due to the level of success in repatriating these two initial animals) in favour of the 'no-breed' policy.

Good luck with volunteering there. I have never worked with woolly monkeys - what a privilege to be able to do so.
 
Hi 'Monkeyarmy', I'm guessing you've not posted before and were just looking for advice on Wild Futures prior to going to volunteer there.
actually his first posts were in the South Lakes thread, followed by this now-locked thread (http://www.zoochat.com/9/top-10-reasons-not-visit-europe-411830/) which was split from there, then in http://www.zoochat.com/1210/primates-uk-401071/ before this current thread. Also a post I had to edit in another thread to remove insults.

He has not made a good first impression....
 
have a read of their website, it explains the history of the place. They originally kept and bred only woolly monkeys. Later they changed to a pure sanctuary, so no breeding.

I often wondered what happened to the Looe Woolly Monkey Sanctuary- now I know.

The founder was a classical musician called Leonard Williams and it was a rather strange set-up- a sort of small human 'commune' living alongside this colony of Woolly Monkeys which in the summer months were able to free-range in the large trees in the grounds.

It certainly was not a Zoo in any shape or form, as it had no other animals except maybe a Donkey or something like that, though visitors were admitted and allowed to make supervised contact with the monkeys and educational talks given. The founder wrote a couple of books too, about the complex social life of the Monkeys and the breeding of them. 'Simba and the Monkey Mind' is one that I remember and I think they had the first Woolly born in the UK? I seem to remember he was very 'anti-zoos' also.

I tried to find it once but it is down a maze of narrow country lanes and I failed miserably. Interesting to know it is still going, albeit in a different guise.
 
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It is my belief that animals in captivity should only be breed if there is hope that the youngsters will be returned to the wild (I heard Dr Cronin say there was hope some of their golden checked gibbons through EAST) or there is no/little hope of the species surviving in the wild. People may not agree but that's my opinion.

Not sure commune is the right word but I don't have a better one, most keepers live in the house as well as the owners and volunteers.
 
So is sticking male elephants away from other elephants for the rest of their lives acceptable? Or what about male gorillas? Breeding is a natural behavior, and as long as the young are given adequate care, I don't see what's wrong.

~ Thaumatibis
 
Welcome to the 21st century we have birth control, it's amazing animals can make sweet sweet love without producing young that the institution has no room for an nd does not want to send animals to other places for what ever reason. Monkey World has a bachelor group of chimps who are a calm (calm for chimps anyway) settled group, two other mixed groups where the females are on the pill again settled. One group alpha male was allowed to breed and produced 2 (poss 3 babies) as the first baby increased group harmony. Males in other primate groups are castrated.

I can't speak for elephants as I'm not knowledgeable on their reproductive biology. Though I'd say keeping males away is a tad extreme and a bit lazy on the institutions part. If we insist ,for what ever reason, on keeping animals in captivity we should do whatever ever practical to replicate their wild behavior which means thinking of ways around issues such as breeding.
 
Not sure commune is the right word but I don't have a better one, most keepers live in the house as well as the owners and volunteers.

I was referring to how it used to be in the past, not as it is now about which I have no knowledge.
 
Welcome to the 21st century we have birth control, it's amazing animals can make sweet sweet love without producing young that the institution has no room for an nd does not want to send animals to other places for what ever reason. Monkey World has a bachelor group of chimps who are a calm (calm for chimps anyway) settled group, two other mixed groups where the females are on the pill again settled. One group alpha male was allowed to breed and produced 2 (poss 3 babies) as the first baby increased group harmony. Males in other primate groups are castrated.

I can't speak for elephants as I'm not knowledgeable on their reproductive biology. Though I'd say keeping males away is a tad extreme and a bit lazy on the institutions part. If we insist ,for what ever reason, on keeping animals in captivity we should do whatever ever practical to replicate their wild behavior which means thinking of ways around issues such as breeding.
In the wild elephants form male groups and go off to breed during the breeding season. Think of a way around that.

~ Thaumatibis
 
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