I think, this thread is not the right place to discuss if moose and musk ox can be kept in Zoos,( most zoo interested people won't understand it anyway,so I tell you by PM.
I would like to know why, I'm sure lots of other people are interested too.
The German Adventures Of A Tea-Loving Dave - April 2014
- Thread starter TeaLovingDave
- Start date
I would like to know why, I'm sure lots of other people are interested too.
I agree with Shirokuma that if you are to post a sweeping statement such as the above in a thread, it is poor form to dismiss requests to explain your stance openly with patronising statements such as:
Your PM was interesting, although I disagree with it on several points - not least your assertion that none of the 124 European collections holding Alces alces are viable, and that exchange of new individuals between collections is proof of this - but I do think that it should have been posted on here. There was certainly nothing mentioned within which was off-record or hard to understand
most zoo interested people won't understand it anyway
Your PM was interesting, although I disagree with it on several points - not least your assertion that none of the 124 European collections holding Alces alces are viable, and that exchange of new individuals between collections is proof of this - but I do think that it should have been posted on here. There was certainly nothing mentioned within which was off-record or hard to understand
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Bib Fortuna
Well-Known Member
Strange, that this"phantastic place" is one of the first projcts too be rebuild into a"better"place-the big cats can't await the start of the construction...
Too bad, the old Bear Castle is gone....
By the by, deleting or editing your comments after people disagree with them isn't exactly in the spirit of fair discussion, Bib after all, there are a number of people debating the ABH in this thread and in some cases suggesting that my opinion of the house is too lenient, but I haven't deleted my opinion or edited it retrospectively!
after all, there are a number of people debating the ABH in this thread and in some cases suggesting that my opinion of the house is too lenient, but I haven't deleted my opinion or edited it retrospectively!
zoogiraffe
Well-Known Member
All that you say is true TLD,but you are missing a major reason why he does that,its because he can,but also you have to remember that our infamous friend is also a highly respected German Zoo Keeper,and has his reputation to protect!!!!By the by, deleting or editing your comments after people disagree with them isn't exactly in the spirit of fair discussion, Bib
Bib Fortuna
Well-Known Member
By the by, deleting or editing your comments after people disagree with them isn't exactly in the spirit of fair discussion, Bib
Everyone has his own opinion, so it is okay for me, if other people do not agree with my opinion-I have no problem with that.I decided to delete my posts, because they have nothing to do with the ABH or the Threads Title-they were Off Topic. The discussion about the Tierparks is always difficult and before it comes to a point,which is not acceptable to me, its better to stop it in time.But for my point of view,it isn't okay using statements,send by PM to another member, what you did.
FunkyGibbon
Well-Known Member
I have stayed out of the discussion following my posts, partly because I had said my piece but mostly because I am not as experienced as most of the members here, and I think listening and learning is usually the best policy in my situation. However, I do feel inclined to defend chizlit on this point, particularly as they have said that their views on the ABH had not previously been well received. This is a moral support post.
I don't think it's fair or helpful to discredit someone's emotional response to an exhibit, especially in this case. Absolutely one can debate and disagree with what someone thinks about an enclosure; that's one of the fun things to do on zoochat. But to attack so abruptly how it makes them feel does not achieve anything positive.
I can't speak for chizlit but I can paraphrase the views of many on this site that I have read over the past months: exhibits with bad animal welfare make us feel sick and/or sad. That's not an intellectual position, that's a gut response to seeing an animal in poor conditions. Everyone has different ideas and standards and thus everyone has different triggers and response levels. Just because you can't imagine being so horrified in a zoo doesn't mean others shouldn't. That doesn't make them anti-zoo, it just makes them different to you. Which is absolutely fine.
Sometimes an emotional response could be due to a lack of understanding. Then it's perfectly reasonable to explain why the way someone feels is unfounded. But that's not what's happening here. Everyone in this thread has agreed that the ABH needs to change. Some just feel it more strongly than others.
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
Ermmm.... I have to say I'd rather it didn't change. I love it the way it is, and when it is transformed into some dubious and largely inauthentic geographically-based thing, with cultural artefacts designed to evoke the spirit of the 'other' (temples, "Mayan" ruins, "mud huts" - all that baloney) and a much-reduced collection (because, after all, who actually needs to see animals in a zoo), I will be rather sad.
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I didn't bring up Chinatown, Birmingham or anywhere else in relation to ABH, you did. I do not like the current set up, you do so leave it there please as you are off topic.
Thanks for the support FG, you summed me up pretty well.
It seems the debate on ABH has two sides, those who wish to see many cats crammed into (and outside) a beautiful old historic which is no longer fit for modern animal keeping needs, or those who look with human eyes and see that the place is too small for the amount of animals that it contains.
The other point to make is, the zoo is so big that there is no need to cram them all in one place.
I'd argue that you have constructed a false - and rather loaded - dichotomy; reducing those who like the ABH to people who "wish to see many cats crammed into [a building] which is no longer fit for modern animal keeping needs" and stating that those who dislike it are the only ones who "look with human eyes and see that the place is too small for the amount of animals that it contains".
This dichotomy does not allow for the possibility that there are people who overall enjoy the ABH but recognise it could and should be improved to bring it "up to date" - but who believe this can be done without losing the overall feel of the building as a whole; something which they may fear will happen with the planned changes under the new management.
If you look back to my posts about the ABH, I would like to think you would concede that I belong to this third category. For instance:
Discussing the small carnivore and clouded leopard external enclosures to the right of the ABH:
Discussing the external enclosures for big cats along the left-hand perimeter of the ABH:
Discussing the internal enclosures for big cats in the ABH:
Discussing the internal enclosure for Malayan Tiger in the ABH:
Discussing the Asiatic Lion enclosures, and changes I would make regarding them:
TLD, I got involved in this discussion because to put it bluntly someone took the p*ss out of me not wishing to go inside the ABH for a second time after what I'd seen on my first visit, plus bringing up non valid points about Chinatown and the welfare of cats in Birmingham which has nothing to do with ABH.
To answer your question, I have no desire to see the house change, and because of its historic nature I dare say it wont/cant change, however we both do agree that it's contents and fittings do need to change for a zoo that has a new plan going forward.
At the end of the day whatever people may fear they might lose should not really count as highly as animal welfare imo.
Naturally
my view is, however, that it need not be an either/or situation; I think that it is entirely possible to retain the historic feel and environment of a given exhibit and still increase animal welfare. It is a shame that some people do believe that the former can never co-exist with the latter..... I suppose only time will tell whether this will prove to be the case for the ABH.Anyhow, much as I very much want my trip reports to provoke discussion and debate I'd prefer things to be a little less antagonistic
quite apart from anything else, if things get *too* heated future readers of this thread might well elect not to continue reading to the conclusion of my trip reports!Status update on those, incidentally, is that my dad is still working on his dissertation but I have been using the time to get as many handwritten notes for both this thread and the "Bavaria" thread done. Unless the translation of notes to keyboard leads to unplanned expansion I only anticipate a few more Leipzig posts, then maybe 2 or 3 posts for my second day at Tierpark Berlin, then a single post on the Humboldt Museum and a final concluding post. Then I plan to do an "index" post with hyperlinks to *all* trip posts, so that anyone reading the thread subsequently can easily find a given post.
After that, Bavaria!
Thaumatibis
Well-Known Member
Please, hurry! I want to know what happens next!
~ Thaumatibis
~ Thaumatibis
Naturally
Anyhow, much as I very much want my trip reports to provoke discussion and debate I'd prefer things to be a little less antagonistic
Status update on those, incidentally, is that my dad is still working on his dissertation but I have been using the time to get as many handwritten notes for both this thread and the "Bavaria" thread done. Unless the translation of notes to keyboard leads to unplanned expansion I only anticipate a few more Leipzig posts, then maybe 2 or 3 posts for my second day at Tierpark Berlin, then a single post on the Humboldt Museum and a final concluding post. Then I plan to do an "index" post with hyperlinks to *all* trip posts, so that anyone reading the thread subsequently can easily find a given post.
After that, Bavaria!
TLD, I think we actually have more in common on this topic than disagreements as our concerns are basically the same, but we would like them solved in different ways but still keep the feel of the ABH.
There was never any beef with you or what you'd written in the past, and I look forward to more news from you.
I visited Leipzig Zoo today and although I plan to write up my thoughts of the whole zoo when I get back to Warsaw in a few days, I thought I would post my views of Gondwanaland here because I had quite a different impression to you. I thought it was brilliant - not perfect - but really good. I would actually rate it as my favourite single exhibit that I have seen so far, beating Wroclaw's Afrykarium.
A few of the enclosures were a bit small, yes, but I don't think any were unacceptably so. I think the planting in certain enclosures has grown since you were there too as the way you describe the fishing cat enclosure would not hold true on my visit since there was a fair bit of planting and hiding spaces (though I would agree with 'somewhat small'). I would also disagree that there was a lack of climbing opportunities for the Diana Monkeys. They had access to quite a few branches in a climbing frame as well as a reasonably sized ledge over the top if they need to get away from the Pygmy Hippo.
I would agree on the area of the Giant Otter enclosure being small, but I don't think it was so terribly small and the water level didn't strike me as too low.
Also, in terms of seeing the animals - I saw nearly all of the ones in the enclosures with notable exceptions being silvery marmosets and ocelots. And in terms of the free roaming species - I thought they had the stocking level pretty much perfect. There are a few more free roaming species now than the list that you posted so here is a current list with the species that I saw in bold.
Small Flying Fox
Lesser Brazilian Teal
Fulvous Whistling Duck
Blue-black Grassquit
Madagascar Red Fody - This species is the most common and you can't go far at all without seeing several, I must have seen a few dozen
Masked Lapwing
Sunbittern
Nicobar Pigeon
Crested Wood Partridge
Brahminy Starling
Red-whiskered Bulbul
Hartlaub's Turaco
White-rumped Shama
Cuban Grassquit
Pied Imperial Pigeon - quite common
Victoria Crowned Pigeon
White-crowned Robin Chat
Pheasant Pigeon
Blue-throated Piping Guan - This fills the role that you suggest for a hornbill for a large bird flying in the canopy
Collared Kingfisher
Black Crake - pair very visible from the boat nesting
Great Kiskadee
Asian Water Dragon
Green Iguana
Brown Anole
Madagascar Giant Day Gecko
Haitian White-lipped Anole
Tomato Frog
Yellow Stream Frog
Indonesian Floating Frog (seen at a distance - I'm not completely sure that it was this)
Giant Chinese Flying Frog
Golfodulcean Poison Frog
Greenhouse Frog
Yellow-and-blue Poison Dart Frog
White's Tree Frog
Also some fish in the 'rivers' I think they were Koi of varying sizes
So as you can see, there are a fair few species now and there are definitely larger numbers of each species than you posted initially and although I did spend quite a while inside Gondwanaland, you could easily see four or five species of birds without trying at all and the number of birds is pretty much perfect now in my opinion. And in terms of bird song: it was constant and at no point could I hear less than three species of birds with the Red Fodies always heard.
In terms of the heat - I didn't find it too bad at all. It was pretty much exactly as a rainforest would be and they had to actually cool Gondwanaland down today with cold mist because it was hotter (up to 34 C) outside. In general, Gondwanaland is the closest I have felt to being in a rainforest without actually being in a rainforest and you say you skipped the boat ride but I thought it was really good. The first bit in the tunnel was quite cool despite not being able to understand the commentary, and going around the 'rivers' on the boat gives a nice and different perspective to everything in my opinion. The planting was fantastic overall as you say and the larger number of birds doesn't seem to damage it at all and I think the numbers were left low initially to allow the plants to establish themselves before larger numbers of animals were brought in.
A few of the enclosures were a bit small, yes, but I don't think any were unacceptably so. I think the planting in certain enclosures has grown since you were there too as the way you describe the fishing cat enclosure would not hold true on my visit since there was a fair bit of planting and hiding spaces (though I would agree with 'somewhat small'). I would also disagree that there was a lack of climbing opportunities for the Diana Monkeys. They had access to quite a few branches in a climbing frame as well as a reasonably sized ledge over the top if they need to get away from the Pygmy Hippo.
I would agree on the area of the Giant Otter enclosure being small, but I don't think it was so terribly small and the water level didn't strike me as too low.
Also, in terms of seeing the animals - I saw nearly all of the ones in the enclosures with notable exceptions being silvery marmosets and ocelots. And in terms of the free roaming species - I thought they had the stocking level pretty much perfect. There are a few more free roaming species now than the list that you posted so here is a current list with the species that I saw in bold.
Small Flying Fox
Lesser Brazilian Teal
Fulvous Whistling Duck
Blue-black Grassquit
Madagascar Red Fody - This species is the most common and you can't go far at all without seeing several, I must have seen a few dozen
Masked Lapwing
Sunbittern
Nicobar Pigeon
Crested Wood Partridge
Brahminy Starling
Red-whiskered Bulbul
Hartlaub's Turaco
White-rumped Shama
Cuban Grassquit
Pied Imperial Pigeon - quite common
Victoria Crowned Pigeon
White-crowned Robin Chat
Pheasant Pigeon
Blue-throated Piping Guan - This fills the role that you suggest for a hornbill for a large bird flying in the canopy
Collared Kingfisher
Black Crake - pair very visible from the boat nesting
Great Kiskadee
Asian Water Dragon
Green Iguana
Brown Anole
Madagascar Giant Day Gecko
Haitian White-lipped Anole
Tomato Frog
Yellow Stream Frog
Indonesian Floating Frog (seen at a distance - I'm not completely sure that it was this)
Giant Chinese Flying Frog
Golfodulcean Poison Frog
Greenhouse Frog
Yellow-and-blue Poison Dart Frog
White's Tree Frog
Also some fish in the 'rivers' I think they were Koi of varying sizes
So as you can see, there are a fair few species now and there are definitely larger numbers of each species than you posted initially and although I did spend quite a while inside Gondwanaland, you could easily see four or five species of birds without trying at all and the number of birds is pretty much perfect now in my opinion. And in terms of bird song: it was constant and at no point could I hear less than three species of birds with the Red Fodies always heard.
In terms of the heat - I didn't find it too bad at all. It was pretty much exactly as a rainforest would be and they had to actually cool Gondwanaland down today with cold mist because it was hotter (up to 34 C) outside. In general, Gondwanaland is the closest I have felt to being in a rainforest without actually being in a rainforest and you say you skipped the boat ride but I thought it was really good. The first bit in the tunnel was quite cool despite not being able to understand the commentary, and going around the 'rivers' on the boat gives a nice and different perspective to everything in my opinion. The planting was fantastic overall as you say and the larger number of birds doesn't seem to damage it at all and I think the numbers were left low initially to allow the plants to establish themselves before larger numbers of animals were brought in.
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Interesting review and congratulations at spotting so many free-ranging animals. Though I have to disagree on the giant otter statement, because that really is the nicest giant otter enclosure I have seen and it is really quite large as they can use a large land part as well (though the pool could have been deeper in my opinion). But I would recommend you to come to Switzerland soon, because even when Gondwanaland is the largest and youngest of the 3 large rainforest domes in Europe, I find it also the least good of the 3. Imo it can barely stand in the shadow of the Masoala hall in Zurich, which is a good contender for the best zoo exhibit in Europe.
I have read through all that you have written on Leipzig so far and I thought I’d update on changes (going through in order as you have written them):
Firstly, the flamingo pond you describe on entry is no longer there and there is a very large and very nice walkthrough aviary instead with the flamingos as well as several species of ibis, spoonbill and waterfowl.
There are now Musk Deer where you said there was a single individual roe deer.
There was no sign of the Coati or Ring-tailed lemurs you mention near the Snow Leopards.
There were no Magpie Geese in the Australian Enclosure, only the Red-necked Wallabies and Red Kangaroos You Mention.
Though I am sure you already know this, the Black Rhinos are now in the Kiwara Kopje directly next to the Kiwara Savannah along with Southern Cheetahs and Patas Monkeys. The paddock that you describe with the Black Rhinos on your visit is (I think) the one currently with Alpaca and Llama.
The enclosure that you describe with Bali Mynahs in the elephant house now has Sri-lankan Giant Squirrels (It is now two enclosures with a tube connecting them).
The old Bear Castle is now a play area. And quite a nice looking one as far as play areas go.
The Asian Walkthrough Area near the Elephant house has Himalayan Monal instead of Asian Woolly-necked Stork (the rest are the same) and the aviary opposite now only holds Yellow-billed Stork.
I did not see the enclosures you describe for Ring-tailed Coati or Black-tailed Prairie dog. I think this section was blocked off behind a big panel with pictures of the planned Himalayan development. I saw Prairie dogs in a standard Prairie dog enclosure next to the Aquarium building.
The Sloth enclosure in Gondwanaland now holds Pygmy Marmosets in addition to the sloths.
Bird House:
The enclosure you mention with Golden-heart Dove and Brazilian Tanagers now holds Blue-crowned Hanging Parrots and Asian Blue Quails, the enclosure that had Black-necked Aracari and Armadillo now holds Bali Mynahs instead of the Aracari (probably the ones that you saw in the Elephant House) as well as the Armadillo and the three smaller enclosure have the same taxa you mention aside from the Shama but instead there are Barred Buttonquail and Luzon Bleeding heart Dove. The free flight aviary no longer holds the Oriental Magpie Robin you mention but has Golden-heart Dove and White-bellied Tanager instead
The aviary you saw with Black-faced ibis and Scarlet Ibis now holds Waldrapps and Black-faced ibis (scarlet ibis in the flamingo walkthrough aviary by the entrance)
There are no longer Citron-crested Cockatoo or Palm Cockatoo in those parrot aviaries but instead in addition to the other ones you mention are Swinhoe’s Pheasant, Bearded barbet and Chestnut-fronted Macaw.
Hope this helps give an idea of some changes since you visited
Firstly, the flamingo pond you describe on entry is no longer there and there is a very large and very nice walkthrough aviary instead with the flamingos as well as several species of ibis, spoonbill and waterfowl.
There are now Musk Deer where you said there was a single individual roe deer.
There was no sign of the Coati or Ring-tailed lemurs you mention near the Snow Leopards.
There were no Magpie Geese in the Australian Enclosure, only the Red-necked Wallabies and Red Kangaroos You Mention.
Though I am sure you already know this, the Black Rhinos are now in the Kiwara Kopje directly next to the Kiwara Savannah along with Southern Cheetahs and Patas Monkeys. The paddock that you describe with the Black Rhinos on your visit is (I think) the one currently with Alpaca and Llama.
The enclosure that you describe with Bali Mynahs in the elephant house now has Sri-lankan Giant Squirrels (It is now two enclosures with a tube connecting them).
The old Bear Castle is now a play area. And quite a nice looking one as far as play areas go.
The Asian Walkthrough Area near the Elephant house has Himalayan Monal instead of Asian Woolly-necked Stork (the rest are the same) and the aviary opposite now only holds Yellow-billed Stork.
I did not see the enclosures you describe for Ring-tailed Coati or Black-tailed Prairie dog. I think this section was blocked off behind a big panel with pictures of the planned Himalayan development. I saw Prairie dogs in a standard Prairie dog enclosure next to the Aquarium building.
The Sloth enclosure in Gondwanaland now holds Pygmy Marmosets in addition to the sloths.
Bird House:
The enclosure you mention with Golden-heart Dove and Brazilian Tanagers now holds Blue-crowned Hanging Parrots and Asian Blue Quails, the enclosure that had Black-necked Aracari and Armadillo now holds Bali Mynahs instead of the Aracari (probably the ones that you saw in the Elephant House) as well as the Armadillo and the three smaller enclosure have the same taxa you mention aside from the Shama but instead there are Barred Buttonquail and Luzon Bleeding heart Dove. The free flight aviary no longer holds the Oriental Magpie Robin you mention but has Golden-heart Dove and White-bellied Tanager instead
The aviary you saw with Black-faced ibis and Scarlet Ibis now holds Waldrapps and Black-faced ibis (scarlet ibis in the flamingo walkthrough aviary by the entrance)
There are no longer Citron-crested Cockatoo or Palm Cockatoo in those parrot aviaries but instead in addition to the other ones you mention are Swinhoe’s Pheasant, Bearded barbet and Chestnut-fronted Macaw.
Hope this helps give an idea of some changes since you visited
Thanks a lot, LaughingDove naturally the rest of my report will be written without these changes in mind, for the sake of consistency, but once I have posted the remaining few chapters I'd be interested in any updates you can provide for those too!
naturally the rest of my report will be written without these changes in mind, for the sake of consistency, but once I have posted the remaining few chapters I'd be interested in any updates you can provide for those too!
FunkyGibbon
Well-Known Member
What is the third hall, after Zurich and Leipzig?
Do you think Monsoon Forest at Chester might be considered alongside them? (obviously a bit premature to ask this question).