Australian and ( NZ) Elephants news and discussion

[Kifaru Bwana]

I think it will be Kavi and Ashoka. Both bulls should already move to another zoo. I doubt they would break the matriarchal group of elephants in Dublin. And I think new bulls are for Australia a great asset. There are three breeding herds, but only one has a bull. Melbourne in particular should breed its cows before moving to Weribee.

Maybe, but up to this point yours is a guesstimate and hence absolutely speculative. Even the Dublin Zoo has as yet to make any announcement.

As all is also politics between various zoo organisations I would not get my hopes up! Imagine that ZAA has to approve any European endeavour thru its affiliation with EAZA.

BTW: the EEP holds several proven breeding bulls now deemed surplus as in having too many offspring. How about ZAA getting out of its beauty sleep and acquire 1-2 proven fellas!

 

[Tafin]

Maybe, but up to this point yours is a guesstimate and hence absolutely speculative. Even the Dublin Zoo has as yet to make any announcement.

As all is also politics between various zoo organisations I would not get my hopes up! Imagine that ZAA has to approve any European endeavour thru its affiliation with EAZA.

BTW: the EEP holds several proven breeding bulls now deemed surplus as in having too many offspring. How about ZAA getting out of its beauty sleep and acquire 1-2 proven fellas!

I think we should only import if we can export some of our surplus males (who must be very valuable to other regions).

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

I think we should only import if we can export some of our surplus males (who must be very valuable to other regions).

I guess given the low numbers and lack of F2 exporting bulls makes no sense.

I would hope and suggest it is imperative upon the ZAA program to create one bachelor male grouping. Secondly, allowing your breedable cows 6-7 birth intervals and the small window of cows being able to breed is a no-brainer. Melbourne needs a proven bull, so the current lack is already impeding the program (that is if you would want a sustainable herd and program in 20 and 50 years from now)!!!!!

 

[toothlessjaws]

Melbourne needs a proven bull, so the current lack is already impeding the program (that is if you would want a sustainable herd and program in 20 and 50 years from now)!!!!!

Oddly, Melbourne could actually accommodate Perth's bull now. They have three seperate paddocks, two barns and I think each barn has a small holding area to its side thats out of sight. The three paddocks all interconnect in a circular system. So any combination of individuals can be introduced while others are kept seperate. So perfect for natural breeding. Which is why it always seemed stupid to me that Bong Su (who was totally useless at mating) was kept at Melbourne while Gung (who knew what to do) was kept at Taronga with a less-than-ideal setup for natural breeding. They should, and could, have swapped. Even if only temporary.

 

[Zorro]

Oddly, Melbourne could actually accommodate Perth's bull now. They have three seperate paddocks, two barns and I think each barn has a small holding area to its side thats out of sight. The three paddocks all interconnect in a circular system. So any combination of individuals can be introduced while others are kept seperate. So perfect for natural breeding. Which is why it always seemed stupid to me that Bong Su (who was totally useless at mating) was kept at Melbourne while Gung (who knew what to do) was kept at Taronga with a less-than-ideal setup for natural breeding. They should, and could, have swapped. Even if only temporary.

I agree with your whole post. I believe the management of the elephant program could be handled better. When one sees the time trouble and huge amount of money it took to import these elephants into the country I believe they should breed them as often as possible with out huge gaps in between, The program got off to a good start with the help of the German AI team but I feel its losing its way some what but at the end of the day it goes back to management!

 

[Elephantelephant]

Oddly, Melbourne could actually accommodate Perth's bull now. They have three seperate paddocks, two barns and I think each barn has a small holding area to its side thats out of sight. The three paddocks all interconnect in a circular system. So any combination of individuals can be introduced while others are kept seperate. So perfect for natural breeding. Which is why it always seemed stupid to me that Bong Su (who was totally useless at mating) was kept at Melbourne while Gung (who knew what to do) was kept at Taronga with a less-than-ideal setup for natural breeding. They should, and could, have swapped. Even if only temporary.

That would be really great if they did. Australia really has to reproduce elephants more (the same is true for North America). Unfortunately, our wish is unlikely to be fulfilled.

 

[Elephant Enthusiast]

Personally I don’t believe we need new bulls in the region at this point in time. First of all, we currently have two mature bulls in the region and each is unrelated to every cow in the region of reproductive age. Adding the adolescent bulls we have into the mix, there are multiple options for sustaining the regional population for several decades, without needing new imports.

Secondly, the lack of breeding and large intervals between calves suggests we don’t have the space to accommodate more than what we already have. I’d rather we made decent use of the cows we had rather than importing more and then breeding them once (like Kulab etc.).

If Sydney Zoo import two bulls from Ireland, that seems really pointless when they could have (and should have) taken the two adolescent surplus bulls at Taronga Western Plains Zoo; or Man Jai from Melbourne and Jai Dee from Taronga. This could have been a win-win for all zoos involved.

I also found this comment from the chief executive of Animal Liberation interesting regarding the elderly female Saigon :

“It’ll probably be problematic if they brought out a bull elephant," she said. "She’s too old for that.”

Saying Saigon is too old for breeding is stating the obvious but, any respectable zoo learnt decades ago that a bull elephant is not an acceptable companion for a cow of any age.

I agree @Zoofan15. It doesn't seem practical for the Sydney Zoo to import two elephants from Ireland when the facility could acquire an elephant, or two, from another institution in Australia. There are at least three elephants who could be a potential companion for Saigon: Mek Kapah (Melbourne Zoo), Permai (Perth Zoo), or Burma (Taronga Western Plains Zoo).

Even though Mek Kapah, Permai, and Saigon all share a common similarity of being post-reproductive, Mek Kapah is the established matriarch of Melbourne's herd and Permai would be better suited as the third cow in Auckland's herd. Also, Mek Kapah and Permai are 16 and 32 years younger than Saigon, respectively, so the Sydney Zoo would either have to acquire another elephant or move the remaining elephant to another institution after Saigon passes away.

Burma is the ideal companion for Saigon as both elephants are post-reproductive, are in their early to mid-sixties, and have not had the company of another elephant their age since the passing of their late companions. Also, moving Burma from Dubbo to Bungarribee would be less hazardous than importing two elephants from Ireland. I do not deny that moving an elephant at Burma's age is not recommended given the underlying risks but there are far greater risks importing two elephants from Dublin.

The elephants, who are most likely to be adolescents and have never endured travel before, will be confined to a tight crate on an airplane for several hours. Barring they survive the long and exhausting trip, there's the uncertainty of whether or not Saigon will except the new elephants and vice versa. Even Lynda Stoner, Chief Executive of Animal Liberation, addressed the possibility:

"[It's] possible the Dublin elephants "may not get along well" with Saigon."

If the integration fails and the imported elephants are bulls, the Australian population will now have two additional surplus bulls that are taking up the much-needed space for calves.

Even though the new elephants would enhance the regional breeding program with new unrepresented genes, the population already has the necessary number of bulls and cows to maintain genetic diversity. The imported bulls are only related to their respective offspring and unrelated to any of the imported reproductively viable cows. Also, there's enough diversity between the F1 elephants to breed the next generation without additional imports. For example, Luk Chai or Man Jai could breed with Kanlaya and Putra Mas or Luk Chai could breed with Mali.

Ultimately, Burma should be transferred to the Sydney Zoo to be Saigon's companion as both elephants are ideal companions for one another, the population does not need additional imports, and the importation of two elephants from Ireland has greater adverse consequences than moving Burma from the Taronga Western Plains Zoo.

 

[Riley]

I think the idea of the 2 new elephants being a companion for Saigon is a pretty far fetched one. I’d say Sydney zoo is just trying to get elephants to fill their exhibits before Saigons inevitable death. They have 2 exhibits and would most likely just hold Saigon separate from the males, and then as the males grow older, they can house them separately if needed.

But I do agree that the program has been quite poorly managed and desperately needs more young females to be born so they can continue to breed as their mothers grow older. I think it’s just a shame the Taronga appears to be letting spite and competition get in the way of a properly managed program across the region.
The moving of the younger males would be a benefit for both facilities but it appears that Taronga would rather maintain the bulls, at a cost to themselves in terms of both space and feed costs, than to have another zoo with elephants in Sydney.

 

[Yassa]

I totally agree with you Riley. Young bulls must be kept seperate from older females; so the two boys from Dublin would certainly never be mixed with Saigon.

I do not understand the inaction in Taronga and Melbourne - they need more calves asap to establish the population but it seems they habe lost interest. There is no excuse to not bring the bull from Perth to Melbourne asap!!! It is pure speculation that transfers are a risk for young calves due to EEHV. There is no science to support this and european zoos certainly execute transfers regardless if young calves live in the herd or not.

 

[Elephantelephant]

I totally agree with you Riley. Young bulls must be kept seperate from older females; so the two boys from Dublin would certainly never be mixed with Saigon.

I do not understand the inaction in Taronga and Melbourne - they need more calves asap to establish the population but it seems they habe lost interest. There is no excuse to not bring the bull from Perth to Melbourne asap!!! It is pure speculation that transfers are a risk for young calves due to EEHV. There is no science to support this and european zoos certainly execute transfers regardless if young calves live in the herd or not.

I fully agree on everything. In addition, if Man Jai could accidentally become ill with EEHV, a few more calves will be born by importing the bull.

 

[toothlessjaws]

@Elephant Enthusiast
In the last 15 years almost a dozen elephants have been flown to this country alone. In fact four came just recently without incident. Others have been transported via long road trips. Another was exported to the USA. Elephants are transported all the time. I don't understand how you could argue it's a risky process.

You should read my earlier post: Saigon is not Sydney Zoo's elephant and is very old. She is privately owned by an ex-circus family. Finding her a companion is unlikely to be Sydney Zoos goal. Instead, their goal is to simply get some elephants in their exhibit.

And the fact that they are thinking of importing from O/S makes clear that none of the other zoos with to give them any.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

I think the idea of the 2 new elephants being a companion for Saigon is a pretty far fetched one. I’d say Sydney zoo is just trying to get elephants to fill their exhibits before Saigons inevitable death. They have 2 exhibits and would most likely just hold Saigon separate from the males, and then as the males grow older, they can house them separately if needed.

But I do agree that the program has been quite poorly managed and desperately needs more young females to be born so they can continue to breed as their mothers grow older. I think it’s just a shame the Taronga appears to be letting spite and competition get in the way of a properly managed program across the region.
The moving of the younger males would be a benefit for both facilities but it appears that Taronga would rather maintain the bulls, at a cost to themselves in terms of both space and feed costs, than to have another zoo with elephants in Sydney.

Yes.

Allthough: on the PR\marketing side Sydney Zoo has not exactly been kind and done good diplomacy with their campaigning. If you want and wish for good collaboration, you should set the example yourself. The very fact no collection has been willing to spare them any elephants from within the region speaks volumes!

Secondly, knowing this ... what guarantee would they have that the European region would step in and simply ignore local reservations on Sydney Zoo's mission/vision, rationale and exhibit quality vis a vis animal welfare.

 

[Elephant Enthusiast]

@Elephant Enthusiast, In the last 15 years almost a dozen elephants have been flown to this country alone. In fact four came just recently without incident. Others have been transported via long road trips. Another was exported to the USA. Elephants are transported all the time. I don't understand how you could argue it's a risky process.

You should read my earlier post: Saigon is not Sydney Zoo's elephant and is very old. She is privately owned by an ex-circus family. Finding her a companion is unlikely to be Sydney Zoos goal. Instead, their goal is to simply get some elephants in their exhibit.

And the fact that they are thinking of importing from O/S makes clear that none of the other zoos with to give them any.

The process of transporting any elephant, whether by airplane or by truck and trailer, has its potential risks. However, the point I was trying to get across was that moving Burma from the Taronga Western Plains Zoo to the Sydney Zoo would be more logistical than importing two elephants from Ireland.

Burma already resides in the region so moving her should be straight forward. Also, should Saigon and Burma not accept one another as companions, Burma could easily return to Dubbo. In the case of the two elephants from Dublin, both elephants will undergo a far longer flight than any of the imported elephants to Australia have endured. Further, should the Dublin elephants fail to integrate with Saigon, all the work and negotiations to import these elephants would have been for nothing.

However, I see your point, @toothlessjaws. The Sydney Zoo is simply looking to acquire additional elephants for when Saigon evidently passes away. Since other Australian zoos aren't willing to provide the Sydney Zoo with an additional elephant as a companion, and a future replacement, for Saigon, the Sydney Zoo has no other choice than to import captive-bred elephants from other countries.

 

[Zoofan15]

There is no excuse to not bring the bull from Perth to Melbourne asap!!! It is pure speculation that transfers are a risk for young calves due to EEHV. There is no science to support this and european zoos certainly execute transfers regardless if young calves live in the herd or not.

The Smithsonian Zoo states that “There is not enough research to confirm how EEHV itself is transmitted, but most viruses are normally spread from one individual to another. Viral shedding occurs when it comes out of latency (hiding); however, there is no simple way to detect if the virus is active without a blood test. ”

Yes such transfers are carried out in European zoos, many of which have high calf mortality rates due to EEHV (Chester, Whipsnade etc). When Whipsnade imported a new female in 2006, three calves died of EEHV in the three years that followed.

There are many things we have yet to learn about EEHV, including what activates the virus; but it’s reasonable to assume that stress (from transfer; or from having a new elephant join the herd) would weaken the immune system.

We don’t know the answers to many of these questions; but what we do know is that whatever Melbourne Zoo is doing has worked to date i.e. they have lost no calves to EEHV. Why rock the boat for the sake of waiting 19 months until Man Jai is eight years old and out of the danger zone?

It is believed EEHV cannot be transmitted through semen via AI, so either do AI on the cows, using the Perth bull (and then import him in two years); or wait two years and import the Perth bull for natural breeding. We all agree at least two of these cows should have been bred years ago, what’s another 19 months?

 

[toothlessjaws]

The process of transporting any elephant, whether by airplane or by truck and trailer, has its potential risks. However, the point I was trying to get across was that moving Burma from the Taronga Western Plains Zoo to the Sydney Zoo would be more logistical than importing two elephants from Ireland.

Burma already resides in the region so moving her should be straight forward. Also, should Saigon and Burma not accept one another as companions, Burma could easily return to Dubbo.

Burma is an animal with a history of aggression towards people and other elephants. And as we have discussed, its very likely that Taronga said "no" to giving Sydney Zoo elephants anyway. So it's likely just not an option for Sydney Zoo.

In the case of the two elephants from Dublin, both elephants will undergo a far longer flight than any of the imported elephants to Australia have endured.

Melbourne just recently sent an elephant to Florida. How do you think elephants in zoos all over the world got there?

Further, should the Dublin elephants fail to integrate with Saigon, all the work and negotiations to import these elephants would have been for nothing.

However, I see your point, @toothlessjaws. The Sydney Zoo is simply looking to acquire additional elephants for when Saigon evidently passes away.

No, you still missed my point. Saigon is not a factor. I can only keep repeating myself here: but she is not Sydney Zoos elephant. She will not necessarily stay at Sydney Zoo if more elephants arrive. She is also very elderly and is unlikely to live much longer.

 

[Elephant Enthusiast]

Burma is an animal with a history of aggression towards people and other elephants. And as we have discussed, it's very likely that Taronga said "no" to giving Sydney Zoo elephants anyway. So it's likely just not an option for Sydney Zoo.

I was unaware that Burma had aggressive tendencies towards not only people but other elephants as well. However, it should have been obvious given her past as a circus elephant. It's unfortunate that Taronga, or any other Australian zoo for that matter, is unwilling to collaborate with Sydney but, that's the harsh reality.

Melbourne just recently sent an elephant to Florida. How do you think elephants in zoos all over the world got there?

Point taken. I retract my previous statement.

No, you still missed my point. Saigon is not a factor. I can only keep repeating myself here: but she is not Sydney Zoos elephant. She will not necessarily stay at Sydney Zoo if more elephants arrive. She is also very elderly and is unlikely to live much longer.

Apologies for not understanding your point clearly, and thank you for the clarification.

 

[MRJ]

It's unfortunate that Taronga, or any other Australian zoo for that matter, is unwilling to collaborate with Sydney but, that's the harsh reality.


.

That is not true. Sydney Zoo is full of animals from Australian zoos, including some from Taronga.

 

[Elephant Enthusiast]

That is not true. Sydney Zoo is full of animals from Australian zoos, including some from Taronga.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, @MRJ. To reword my previous statement: It's unfortunate that the Taronga Zoo, or any other Australian zoo for that matter, is unwilling to collaborate with the Sydney Zoo pertaining to the acquisition of additional elephants for Sydney's exhibit but, that's the reality of the situation.

 

[Zoofan15]

This is why I don't believe we need new bulls yet. To use Mali (the eldest surviving first generation female) as an example:

Mali (2010)

Unrelated bulls she could breed with:

Putra Mas (1989); Gung (2000); Luk Chai (2009); Sabai (2016); Jai Dee (2017)

Related bulls she can't breed with:

Pathi Harn (2010); Man Jai (2013)

Mali needs to breed before her 24th year (2034). The obvious choice for her first mate is Putra Mas, as he's a founder and is 11 years old than Gung (who is likely to live longer).

Mali is 10 years old now. Assuming she produces a daughter by 2030 at the earliest (she may not breed until she's 16-20; the first calf might not survive; the first calf might be a male etc); then an unrelated mate will not be needed for this female until around 2045-2050.

Unrelated bulls to this 2nd generation female (Mali's daughter):

Gung (2000); Luk Chai (2009); Sabai (2016); Jai Dee (2017)

The obvious choice is Gung (the remaining founder).

It's only when a 3rd generation female of Mali's line needs to breed, that we would have run out of options. This will be in approximately 2070 (give or take 10 years).

This is all assuming average rates of reproduction. On the extreme end of the scale, Mali could produce a daughter at 40 years of age (2050), who in turn could still be producing third generation females by 2090 (note: this would require a son of Gung x a female not from Mali's line as the breeding bull; since Gung won't be alive by 2090).

 

[toothlessjaws]

Personally, I welcome any new bloodlines into the program and don't in the slightest bit mind that they are bulls, especially knowing how complex, long and difficult the acquisition of cows can be.

However, I'd really rather Sydney Zoo did not house elephants at all. By my ethics, they all belong in open range zoos. And additionally zoos that keep elephants need to commit to housing multiple bulls so that natural breeding is encouraged and the sex ratio becomes more balanced. It's just common sense.