I think some of the Panda breeding centres in China are more like 'farms'. When breeding time comes around they can move different males around to be near a female etc though I don't know exactly how it works or what is the 'secret' to their success.
Edinburgh Zoo Edinburgh Zoo News 2023
- Thread starter Quincey
- Start date
Colin Tudge wrote 'Last Animals in the Zoo' and said that zoos should have at least 2 male pandas near a female who is about to breed. The female chooses her mate from the competitors.
No mention, however, of one fairly major factor - after a few years he didn't have testicles anymore
Edinburgh Zoo vet is now on record as saying it was 'clear from early on that the two Pandas didn't like each other'- (I translate that as the female not liking the male, as a male is normally keen to mate any female) and they soon realised that natural mating was unlikely and they would need to attempt AI for a cub.
Now what I find interesting is that both these Pandas had bred previously- with other partners- in China. I believe Edinburgh Zoo may even have requested a 'proven' pair, which they got- in a way at least. But why weren't they given either Tian Tian or Yuan Guang together with the partner they had bred with? Was it simply just some logistical reason- or a deliberate decision?
Incidentally they will apparently live out their days at a Panda reserve that holds around 40 Pandas- a bit late now but plenty of opportunity for mate choosing there I guess...
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I have said before that I wonder whether China deliberately sends just single pairs since they know that proper breeding requires more than that... or perhaps that's a bit cycnical of me
Yes, I was hinting that maybe they deliberately didn't send Edinburgh both partners of a proven pair... With Pandas, even with single pairs you do occassionally get a compatable pair and then the cubs start arriving..but I guess its just chance when that happens. I don't think any of the zoos in US or Europe(or Australia) have ever tried, (or been able) borrowing an additional male at breeding time to create some rivalry. Probably there is an embargo from China on such a move anyway. The whole situation is very false and unsatisfactory I feel.
GeeZee
Well-Known Member
But there’s been plenty of pandas breeding in western zoos , I don’t think China would intentionally do that & your just feeding into the xenophobia to be honest…
Lafone
Well-Known Member
I would urge caution about labelling any criticism of Chinese government policy on pandas as ‘xenophobia’ it’s easy to throw those terms around too lightly.
As for ‘plenty’ it’s hardly the same percentage as in the system in China is it.
Let’s face it if pandas were not a political football there would be no fees and loan arrangements in the first place and zoos would be able to be part of captive breeding programmes in the same way as most other species.
Haliaeetus
Well-Known Member
Polyandry isn't perceived as a "normal" situation by the visitors, at least in the West.
Such a situation is seen as bizarre, even when needed for the breeding of some species (e.g. the Cheetah).
The public expect more breeding with pairs or harems like with lions, gorillas and most hoofstock species.
The import of a panda trio with one male and two females in any place out of China would be of course seen as strange.
Lafone
Well-Known Member
I am not sure of the evidence for that particularly for any member of the public who has a domestic cat.
You actually would need two males and one female for it to be effective I think. In the wild an oestrus female attracts as many as half a dozen males it seems. In China places like the Chengdu centre have many Pandas so they can 'mix and match' at breeding time very easily.
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Haliaeetus
Well-Known Member
Pandas have bred successfully in Beauval, Madrid, Pairi Daiza, in many Canadian and American places, and in other western (or non-Chinese) zoos. And in most cases, with a Chinese technical support (that is favourable to the public image of China).
So a deliberate plan to lend unfit pairs abroad looks unlikely.
So a deliberate plan to lend unfit pairs abroad looks unlikely.
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GeeZee
Well-Known Member
Exactly my point , thank you & thanks for the examples too, Berlin would also be an addition to your list.
Did Mexico City ever have more than one male panda at a time? Not sure if they ever did but it’s the most likely candidate to have done so.
I don’t want to get too political but the Chinese government is highly authoritarian. Speculating they may have nefarious reasoning in relation to pandas as they do in many other areas is not xenophobic. I know you love pandas (I do too, and they’re always the highlight of my visit to any zoo which has them) but please don’t use them as cover to whitewash the CCP.
I con our entirely with this, and it relates directly to the above.
I disagree with this. Most of the public know lions live in prides and not pairs, so it wouldn’t be a difficult situation to explain to the public this is how pandas exist in the wild. No more so than it would be to explain elephants live in herds.
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GeeZee
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your response & I’m happy to agree to disagree respectfully of course.
Id be tempted comment politically, but I’m just going to keep my simple point as agreeing with Haliaeetus, the fact is there are several western zoos that breeding has been successful , more so than perhaps people may think.
I just feel with that in mind, China wouldn’t knowlingly send a “defective” pair willingly and deliberately to Edinburgh, especially during that time period where UK and Chinese relations were arguably the best they’ve ever been, certainly in recent history (known as the ‘Golden Age’ of Sino-British relations).
The world has changed much since then of course but I feel that some of the cynicism by some comments, but also in some of the wider media is a little unfair, this whole debate about the CCP et al is of course, even worst in the states.
I wouldn't describe them as being a 'defective' pair. Its just that, like a number of others, they failed to breed and were apparently somewhat incompatable. I just don't understand why if both of them had bred previously with other partners, a proven pair that had bred with each other weren't supplied. Seems a strange decision.
GeeZee
Well-Known Member
Could be a whole host of reasons, I believe Tian Tian does have grandchildren (if you can use that term) and her previous mate was Xi Meng who was born in 1993 (they had twins) , Yang Guang was about the same age as her (both born 2003) so maybe that had a bearing on the decision.
The failure to reproduce basically goes down to incompatibility of pairings, the intransigence on the part of the Chinese animal management authorities to acknowledge panda reproductie requires multiple (male) partners on site replicating wild panda breeding behaviour in order to enable the female in heat / close to cycling to choose the right partner and the over emphasis yet ... on AI versus natural reproduction.
It has really been down to new pairs at San Diego Zoo, Schoennbrunn Zoo in Wien, Pairi Daizi (I think ...) that at long lest Chinese giant panda species coordinators have begin to see some sense in natural reproduction and what it takes. The Wolong center now has - I believe - for part this regime for their giant pandas (with the added luxury of having multiple adult males to every female).
Possibly, the Chengdu Panda Base has for part the same set up ..., but unsure. Probably other forumsters may be more informed on the current state of affairs there.
BTW: My views on the former giant panda deals is that whereas I do see that the investment for exhibiting giant panda pairs is huge, there are / have been real in situ conservation benefits to out of range giant panda loans and formal conservation breeding arrangements with out of range states.
Yes, age is one good reason they may have selected them as a pair. Probably further breeding wasn't the prime consideration anyway- having a same-aged pair for exhibit may well have been at the forefront of the selection, while at the same time adhering to the request for proven breeders.
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