bazzoobuilder
Well-Known Member
By the way I was talking about humans.
Noah's Ark Zoo Farm Elephants
- Thread starter jacks zoo
- Start date
What an attractive propect. I'd agree with you 100% there bazzoobuilder!
I am not against culling. Completely the opposite in fact. But in the context of elephants its an absolutely stupid idea. Prairie Dogs, Fallow Deer, Mara... these are acceptable to cull. Elephants are a whole different ball game where individuals are celebrities and have huge followings amongst zoo fans and general visitors (just look at any thread on elephants and you'll see that they are all individually named and followed) - especially babies. Elephant births are still rare and precious occurrences and every individual should be preserved. The solution is more batchelor facilities like the new one in Eindhoven. Start shooting baby elephants and you'll have a PR catastrophe on your hands.
That said, I assume that the senior member of NAZF staff who made that remark, has since learnt the error of that judgement. I'll wait to see the new elephant facility with an open mind and hope that it will be run with rather more ethical protocols. I shalln't form a firm opinion until the project is complete.
scimiterhorned1
Member
i think noahs quite hipercritical. if they r goin to rescue elephants and bring them to only a 7 aacre enclosure what will they do when tht enclosure is ful? if some elephants need rescuing after tht then they will turn them down cause the place will be full. its stupid
So you should never rescue anything unless you can provide the capacity to continue indefinitely?
mazfc
Well-Known Member
Following that through to it's logical conclusion, does that mean no establishment should import animals into their collections unless they have an infinite capacity to keep on importing.
How is 'rescuing' being defined in this context by the way?
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
Are we really going to make statements about euthanasia of humans being an 'attractive idea'? Wrong era my friend, try 1940's Germany. Unless, if its culling with a twist you're looking for, try modern day China or Israel, where they harvest organs to boot....
The idea that there are too many people and this is causing the environment and wildlife to suffer is logical, but way too simplistic, and a bit dated dare I say.....people are a resource for protecting and enhancing the environment, as long as they can afford to, like, eat, and their children are not drinking dirty water.
Since when is it okay to cull deer, mara, etc? It is possible to limit breeding in the first place. I don't think the public really know about culling, so the argument that its not okay for elephants, but fine for, say, antelope, is ridiculous. I love that Longleat hold a big bachelor herd of nyala and bongo. It would have been a waste if they had been culled. Yes, deer are culled in parks in the absence of predators in the UK. But Flamingoland took care to send its last fallow deer to a deer park, its not impossible to relocate deer. I'm just saying, these animals are exhibited to make people connect with them, the signs and talks and keepers tell their stories, the public are interested in births and deaths, regardless of the species its not the same as farming, or wildlife management in national parks, reserves etc.
The idea that there are too many people and this is causing the environment and wildlife to suffer is logical, but way too simplistic, and a bit dated dare I say.....people are a resource for protecting and enhancing the environment, as long as they can afford to, like, eat, and their children are not drinking dirty water.
Since when is it okay to cull deer, mara, etc? It is possible to limit breeding in the first place. I don't think the public really know about culling, so the argument that its not okay for elephants, but fine for, say, antelope, is ridiculous. I love that Longleat hold a big bachelor herd of nyala and bongo. It would have been a waste if they had been culled. Yes, deer are culled in parks in the absence of predators in the UK. But Flamingoland took care to send its last fallow deer to a deer park, its not impossible to relocate deer. I'm just saying, these animals are exhibited to make people connect with them, the signs and talks and keepers tell their stories, the public are interested in births and deaths, regardless of the species its not the same as farming, or wildlife management in national parks, reserves etc.
bazzoobuilder
Well-Known Member
First I would just like to point out that I have no more wish to see anything resembling the holocaust than any other seine person. Neither would I advocate killing anything without reason. (I carry spiders and moths back out of the house)
I made a true statement by witch I stand (not really relevant to this site but I will discuss with anybody off topic about the ethics of it see .. BBC - Ethics: Euthanasia .. ) to prove a point to Paradoxuas about how it is not fair to quote out of context and paraphrase. Thanks to those of you who helped me in this, I thought it might take longer.
I made a true statement by witch I stand (not really relevant to this site but I will discuss with anybody off topic about the ethics of it see .. BBC - Ethics: Euthanasia .. ) to prove a point to Paradoxuas about how it is not fair to quote out of context and paraphrase. Thanks to those of you who helped me in this, I thought it might take longer.
I have a few points/opinions/questions regarding this thread, please excuse me if this all comes out a bit jumbled.
The basic plans in terms of the size of both indoor and outdoor housing sounds promising. I know nothing about the zoo (with the excpetion of their basic beliefs) or it's staff so I'm not in a position to say too much about that.
I'm sure I read somewhere in the last couple of years about a proposed culling of elephants in Africa. If in situ projects are resulting in this outcome, surely ex situ breeding programmes need looking at more closely before obtaining yet more stock.
Speaking of which, has anyone ascertained yet where these 'rescued' ele's are going to come from?
I happen to think that if the plan is to rescue psychologically and/or physically damaged animals then this is quite shrewd as any abnormal behaviours (that would be frowned on if seen at another collection) would be accepted as traits developed from their difficult past. Therefore the zoo adds a large, crowd pleasing animal to its collection and doesn't have to worry about appearances not being perfect. (I appreciate that's a cynical view and I'm not trying to say that this will be the case, it's just something that crossed my mind).
Also, there is much literature at the moment pondering why ele's in captivity are living shorted lives than those in the wild. There are 2 sides of the coin here. Should any more zoos really be considering adding ele's to their collection while the reasons for this are being investigated? But also, if the so called best zoos in the world are failing to get their ele's to old age, should we really critisise another collection for having a go, slating them before they've even started work?
Finally, I think I read somewhere in this thread about Blackpool zoo moving from FC to PC. Can anyone tell me when this happened and what the reasons were behind it?
Apologies if I've not explained myself very well.
The basic plans in terms of the size of both indoor and outdoor housing sounds promising. I know nothing about the zoo (with the excpetion of their basic beliefs) or it's staff so I'm not in a position to say too much about that.
I'm sure I read somewhere in the last couple of years about a proposed culling of elephants in Africa. If in situ projects are resulting in this outcome, surely ex situ breeding programmes need looking at more closely before obtaining yet more stock.
Speaking of which, has anyone ascertained yet where these 'rescued' ele's are going to come from?
I happen to think that if the plan is to rescue psychologically and/or physically damaged animals then this is quite shrewd as any abnormal behaviours (that would be frowned on if seen at another collection) would be accepted as traits developed from their difficult past. Therefore the zoo adds a large, crowd pleasing animal to its collection and doesn't have to worry about appearances not being perfect. (I appreciate that's a cynical view and I'm not trying to say that this will be the case, it's just something that crossed my mind).
Also, there is much literature at the moment pondering why ele's in captivity are living shorted lives than those in the wild. There are 2 sides of the coin here. Should any more zoos really be considering adding ele's to their collection while the reasons for this are being investigated? But also, if the so called best zoos in the world are failing to get their ele's to old age, should we really critisise another collection for having a go, slating them before they've even started work?
Finally, I think I read somewhere in this thread about Blackpool zoo moving from FC to PC. Can anyone tell me when this happened and what the reasons were behind it?
Apologies if I've not explained myself very well.
bazzoobuilder
Well-Known Member
Amy
I’m not in a position to comment on what sort of elephants we will end up with from what background and with what baggage as I have nothing to do with acquisitions and know very little about their care in general.
From my point of view I don’t see any problem so long as there management is tailored to their special needs (aforementioned baggage) if there is any.
If the facility proves to be as spacious and adaptable as we are planning there should be little problem in being able to cater for most needs.
As for you being a little cynical there’s nothing wrong with that when you have a good point.
I work there and I don’t remember there being too much concern about making stuff look good in that respect. Despite what sometimes finds its way into the press what you see is what you get, we don’t hide stuff from the public. Probably would get a bit less hassle if we did, it would be great to work at a zoo where nothing is ever ill or dies and no animal eats another.
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
(1) Elephants have been the subject of culls for years in some African countries. Many of the adults you see in captivity were captured at a young age after watching their families being culled. I don't think there is much point zoos trying to breed captive elephants with a view to one day releasing them, but it is beneficial to the social cohesion of a captive group to be in a breeding situation in order to have multiple generations (assuming the calves are not sent on at a young age).
(2) There is a recommendation within the EAZA elephant Taxon Advisory Group for collections to move to 'protected contact', which in part would explain Blackpool. Blackpool in particular recieved bad publicity for its 'free contact' training, including associations with US elephant trainers who allegedly were involved in incidents involving cruelty in the US, so there is also a historical issue with why Blackpool may have moved over before, say, Whipsnade (who still use 'free contact').
I am against free contact, but in the case of Blackpool, it has been suggested on here that the large grassy paddock and woodland is now no longer accessible to the elephants as a result of this change. I think Blackpool should have prioritised linking and modifying the elephant field for protected contact over building a giraffe or penguin exihibt.
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
that's the issue. The field and woods were fenced with light electric fencing, which was fine for free contact where staff could supervise them, but not for a protected contact situation. Also, I think the paddock was a short distance from the main enclosure, and obviously the elephants cannot be walked there if protected contact is in place.
http://www.asianelephant.net/blackpool/blackpool.htm#
http://www.asianelephant.net/blackpool/blackpool.htm#
Now we are upto 19.5 acres just for the paddock....?
Somerset elephant haven will be largest in Europe | This is Somerset
Somerset elephant haven will be largest in Europe | This is Somerset
Elephant Eden
Has any one any idea where the picture of the 2 Asian elephants was taken used in the Press release?Many thanks.
Has any one any idea where the picture of the 2 Asian elephants was taken used in the Press release?Many thanks.
Thank you, looking at picture again looks like it below the Cow shed, in mydays there as a Elephant keeper, this paddock was not there,i left in the late 80,s, can reconise one of the elephants i think but not sure about the orther one.
I know it's never going to be universally loved but I like the fact it's planned for the elephants to have 24 hour access to there enclosure and a heated pool. I'm not a great fa of this place but I admire their balls, it's a shame there aren't more zoo directors with balls.
Noah's Ark Zoo Farm to launch five-star spa hotel – for elephants | This is Bristol
Noah's Ark Zoo Farm to launch five-star spa hotel – for elephants | This is Bristol
bazzoobuilder
Well-Known Member
The pool isn’t going to be heated! The press have got that one wrong. It’s an outside pool.
The rest is more or less correct. The building is to be heated so I expect they got mixed up.
We keep re measuring the area and it looks like we can make it over 20 acres without the elephants going completely out of site. I expect the observation platform will have to be quite high though.
The rest is more or less correct. The building is to be heated so I expect they got mixed up.
We keep re measuring the area and it looks like we can make it over 20 acres without the elephants going completely out of site. I expect the observation platform will have to be quite high though.
Thanks for the info. any details about the interior would be good, I'm thinking furnishings and enrichment; will it be a fairly basic barn? I think having 24 hour access to the paddock is great but during cold weather I imagine the elephants will be spending a fair amount of time indoor.