General Circus Poll
- Thread starter Zambar
- Start date
ZYBen
Well-Known Member
What a fabulous example of good animal training and conditioning
Im seeing them in May.
My view is that how can animals in a Circus have a natural life, that many zoo's (I know not all) strive to complete. Such as Chester!
The bit that got me was the horse box, how dare they put a zebra in one to move it...
Circuses are in no way comparable to a good, AZA zoo. Keeping animals, most especially elephants, big cats, and bears, is wrong simple because they are not in a naturalistic setting. Now I know what some people will say "Well zoos do not have naturalistic setting." Good zoos have the animals in simulated natural settings that allow them to interact with one another in an environment similar to that in the wild. Another aspect is the harsh training that circuses apply to the animals, most especially the elephants, using bull hooks. Search on Youtube and Google to find a well known circuses Barnum and Bailey causing harm and mistreatment to animals. Another aspect is that circuses, unlike zoos, do not contribute to the education or conservation, as stated by the Wildlife Conservation Research Unit. While they may state that conservation is the broad message, the fact is circuses are entertainment venues, period.
- This video proves that circuses abuse animals.
- Another great video proving this abuse. Whomever posted that elephants enjoy traveling and watching visitors because it provides enrichment, it horribly uninformed.
- Another sad video
Last edited by a moderator:
According to my cousin in L.A., there is a new permanent (non-traveling) circus in downtown Los Angeles. He has not been to it, just happened to see it while driving downtown.
I have not been to a circus since I was a kid, and I think then only once, and I just don't see why people enjoy them. The best way to stop them using animals is for the public to stop supporting them. I wonder if attendance at circuses is as high as it used to be? (I honestly have no idea).
I have not been to a circus since I was a kid, and I think then only once, and I just don't see why people enjoy them. The best way to stop them using animals is for the public to stop supporting them. I wonder if attendance at circuses is as high as it used to be? (I honestly have no idea).
This maybe what you are talking about.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/welfare/documents/circus-report.pdf
Also don't forget Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington's research and report which was part funded by the RSPCA which then tried to suppress it when it didn't support their opinion. Full version on line here:
ANIMALS in CIRCUSES and ZOOS
I know a few circus trainers and have visited a number of shows over the years. Personally I would like to see circuses licensed and inspected. I actually can't see a problem with some animal species being in circus particularly domestic ones and some "exotics" also appear do well in a circus environment.
Animal welfare has to based on actual research and I am speaking from a UK point of view as regards circuses.
The current research suggests that many animal species can be successfully cared for in circus situation; I put links to two reports earlier in this tread.
Of course, animal groups like PETA will flood public assess Internet sites with nasty videos of bad practice in all kinds of animal husbandry but this doesn't mean it is the norm.
Paix
Well-Known Member
Im not getting into this but, nobody, no one, can tell me this is good for animals
The lights, the screams, the crowds, I just hate it. I agree partially with the training point of view, for enrichment purposes. But the housing, transport and actual show just....
Im not going into it.
The lights, the screams, the crowds, I just hate it. I agree partially with the training point of view, for enrichment purposes. But the housing, transport and actual show just....
Im not going into it.
That's a queer way of "not getting into it"!!!
Lovely pic of superbly trained elephants in great condition. Thanks
Lovely pic of superbly trained elephants in great condition. Thanks
I think animals could thrive in circuses, but I've never seen one who does. I know with domestic animals you can make their cages look great and be huge, but with nothing to do leads to unhappy animals. Whereas I know a border collie who lives in a pokey flat but does frisbee, doggy dancing, he can even do handstands, loads of tricks which are basically pointless, but he loves them, and without them he'd go insane.
An elephant who was well cared for and loved his handler, trained with positive reinforcement to do amusing things, conditioned to like the noise and kept away from the flashing lights etc, and was kept mentally active at least 8 hours a day, I think that would be a happy animal.
But I have not seen anything like that at any circus that exists today.
An elephant who was well cared for and loved his handler, trained with positive reinforcement to do amusing things, conditioned to like the noise and kept away from the flashing lights etc, and was kept mentally active at least 8 hours a day, I think that would be a happy animal.
But I have not seen anything like that at any circus that exists today.
Im not getting into this but, nobody, no one, can tell me this is good for animals
The lights, the screams, the crowds, I just hate it. I agree partially with the training point of view, for enrichment purposes. But the housing, transport and actual show just....
Im not going into it.
Finding one bad example is not an argument against circuses in themselves, if this were the case then one bad enclosure could be used as a reason to abolish all zoos.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
I didn't know zebras can be categorized according to individual wealth. So is there something like a rich zebra, too?
Paix
Well-Known Member
I do have my reasons but like I said, I am not going into this.
Deviant*Strain
Well-Known Member
I have been to one exotics circus and I will never visit one ever again. They are hateful places of severe abuse and degradation. Seeing an Elephant stand on it's back legs, sit down and be covered in scars from Bullhooks... I'm sorry there is NOT a single thing to back that up. There is a massive difference between training an animal for husbandry and making up a circus clown. The photo Paix posted makes me feel ill. The conditions circus animals are kept in are just horrific. Keeping lions, tigers, elephants and numerous other animals in tiny cramped cages without any care (EG water, food, shade) and beaten to perform... how anyone supports a circus I do not know.
Bull hooks can be used in non-harmful ways and most zoo's that use them can use them like this. Yet in every circus I've ever heard of, they use the bull hook like a weapon and deal some awful blows to all sorts of animals. Whips aren't exactly nice. Tigers and Lions forced to jump through flaming hoops in fear of having flesh torn by a leather strap? Oh yeah, really choosing to perform isn't it.
I'm sorry, no one will EVER justify circus' with exotics to me. However, with domestics (eg Dogs and Horses) we can easily care for them without many issues. But exotics circus... burn them
IT's the only thing I support PETA on.
Bull hooks can be used in non-harmful ways and most zoo's that use them can use them like this. Yet in every circus I've ever heard of, they use the bull hook like a weapon and deal some awful blows to all sorts of animals. Whips aren't exactly nice. Tigers and Lions forced to jump through flaming hoops in fear of having flesh torn by a leather strap? Oh yeah, really choosing to perform isn't it.
I'm sorry, no one will EVER justify circus' with exotics to me. However, with domestics (eg Dogs and Horses) we can easily care for them without many issues. But exotics circus... burn them
IT's the only thing I support PETA on.I have been to one exotics circus and I will never visit one ever again. They are hateful places of severe abuse and degradation. Seeing an Elephant stand on it's back legs, sit down and be covered in scars from Bullhooks... I'm sorry there is NOT a single thing to back that up. There is a massive difference between training an animal for husbandry and making up a circus clown. The photo Paix posted makes me feel ill. The conditions circus animals are kept in are just horrific. Keeping lions, tigers, elephants and numerous other animals in tiny cramped cages without any care (EG water, food, shade) and beaten to perform... how anyone supports a circus I do not know.
Bull hooks can be used in non-harmful ways and most zoo's that use them can use them like this. Yet in every circus I've ever heard of, they use the bull hook like a weapon and deal some awful blows to all sorts of animals. Whips aren't exactly nice. Tigers and Lions forced to jump through flaming hoops in fear of having flesh torn by a leather strap? Oh yeah, really choosing to perform isn't it.
I'm sorry, no one will EVER justify circus' with exotics to me. However, with domestics (eg Dogs and Horses) we can easily care for them without many issues. But exotics circus... burn them
How anyone can spout such superlative-stuffed, self-contradicting, emotionally-charged drivel I do not know. You say yourself that you have only been to one circus, so how can you even pretend to know what goes on in every one? As I am repeatedly saying (is anyone listening?), this thread is not "Recount your worst circus nightmare" but is, even in its title, "General". As such, saying that you disagree with the concept itself of circuses (which is what we are discussing here) and then supporting elephant training in zoos is quite simply ridiculous. Just because "every circus [you've] heard of" (and that is evidently very few) treats animals badly, does not mean circuses in themselves are wrong, just that the bad ones are. Also, how is it okay for "domestics" to be kept, but not "exotics". Does this mean that Equus ferus caballus can be used in circuses, but not Equus ferus przewalskii? Why can Canis familiaris be trained "without many issues" whilst for Canis lupus it is "hateful"? I can understand (sort of) that some people are against the training of animals so will be against circuses, but to simply say that they should all "burn" (grow up) because of one bad experience is like saying that all humans should be imprisoned when one commits murder.
So if anyone else feels like vomiting up a few paragraphs of rubbish about how they visited a circus as a kid and never will again, please start the thread "Recount your worst circus nightmare" and post it there, so that those who wish to debate sensible opinions will know to avoid it.
Last edited:
Firstly bull hooks can never be used kindly, they are a punishment to the animal, and thus the very point of them is to hurt. Positive reinforcement, that is training through rewards, is the only way you can get an animal to do what you want kindly.
Secondly, why do you think tigers and lions are whipped but dogs aren't? In any training organisation theory is generally consistent, if they are hitting tigers then they are hitting dogs too, is this ok in your world?
Clicker training and other positive methods are the only ones worth your time.
Secondly, why do you think tigers and lions are whipped but dogs aren't? In any training organisation theory is generally consistent, if they are hitting tigers then they are hitting dogs too, is this ok in your world?
Clicker training and other positive methods are the only ones worth your time.
A breath of fresh air in this discussion. A logical and reasonable response amongst highly emotional posts. Thank you redpanda
I think the concept of circuses can be ethical and just as defensible as zoos in most aspects. Whether most circuses are currently practicing in an ethical way is questionable but i certainly look forward to a future of circuses that operate in respectable and sensible ways.
Paix
Well-Known Member
The trainer that does not hold or need a whip is by far more impressive. Just something my Science teacher said...
I would be fine with a circus if it did two of two things. 1) Used re-inforcement training eg. Clicker (although I do understand that weapons, whips etc may be needed in an emergency) and 2) Their living requirements are a good quality.
I also dont like the lighting, but I do not know how that effects an animal.
I would be fine with a circus if it did two of two things. 1) Used re-inforcement training eg. Clicker (although I do understand that weapons, whips etc may be needed in an emergency) and 2) Their living requirements are a good quality.
I also dont like the lighting, but I do not know how that effects an animal.