North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

Jambo said:
Imo the most realistic option for breeding out of Thai's sons is little Teddy who is far more valuable than any of Shanti's sons; he's a first generation bull from two wildborn parents! You could argue if any of Shanti's sons were to breed it would be Baylor (simply being the oldest and most socially experienced of her sons) but who knows. I can see a situation where neither Baylor, Duncan or Nelson end up breeding and Thai's line is continued through his son, Teddy and daughters, Tupelo, Joy, Tilly and granddaughter Winnie.

There's not many zoos at the moment who are in need of a new bull. Considering we do have three though that require some changes a three way swap might be best for the following zoos. Bohdi heads to Saint Louis to be paired with their three girls; Raja is sent to Houston to breed with either Tess's line or Shanti's; and Tucker is sent to Columbus to be the breeding bull there.

Another thought of mine - in the event Rudy and Sunny fail to conceive to Sabu, I don't see why a transfer of Tucker, Shanti, Joy and Nelson to Columbus won't work. Columbus will be able to get breeding females to continue their breeding program; Tucker already has a recommendation with Joy to breed, and he can breed with Shanti and Phoebe too. Young Nelson would be valuable companionship for Frankie too. A win win for both facilities.
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Raja could only be sent to breed with Tess's line as Shanti is his oldest half sister
 
Wisp O' Mist said:
This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but what is up with Raja and St. Louis Zoo???

I keep hearing that St. Louis is strongly attached to Raja, which is why they refuse to transfer him despite him apparently having multiple breeding recommendations. But why is St. Louis all that attached to him in the first place?

Was he the first calf born there or something? A "miracle" baby who wasn't expected to survive, yet he beat the odds and thrived instead? Does he have a particularly charismatic personality that has endeared him to zoo staff and visitors alike?

Just... why on earth would St. Louis opt to keep him on indefinitely when they have three daughters of his to continue his "family line" if that's important to them???
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Again egos and like you said public relations. But yes they really need to send him away as most of the cows there are unbreedable.

raja’s’ mother had a prolapsed uterus hence the reason he was her only calf.

Siri is retaining a fetus. She has not expelled it in years so she may have absorbed it by now if that happened. I am not certain if she’s cycling or not.

and of course there are raja’s daughters.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I can never get through one of these lists without a laugh, but the one about Doc takes the cake. For how much the IDA talkes about "the wild" they sure don't know much about how bull elephants work-
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Read the 2022 list. It even gets more misleading and full of emotional ploys. Sabu is an unwilling breeder and the three older cows at Cinci zoo will be forced to be bred….????
 
Jambo said:
Another thought of mine - in the event Rudy and Sunny fail to conceive to Sabu, I don't see why a transfer of Tucker, Shanti, Joy and Nelson to Columbus won't work.
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I see no reason why they couldn't be transferred even if Sabu successfully bred one or two of the girls.
At this point, I will only believe Rudy is pregnant if Columbus announces she is. I have found zero indication that she was even interested in Sabu, while Sunny is always close to him and has been confirmed to have been bred several times. As for Phoebe, she has been naturally bred before so I wouldn't be surprised if she had a calf naturally from Sabu.

Even assuming Rudy and Sunny both established themselves as breeders, bringing in Joy would secure a younger female for the breeding program that Columbus lost with Ellie. Not to mention that Tucker would just be the perfect candidate for Cbus' next breeding bull. Moving just Tucker is also an option, but when Houston's herd already will be needing split AND Joy has an existing breeding reccomendation, this move kills two birds with one stone so to speak. Not to mention how well it would work for Nelson and Frankie to potentially move to Cinci's bachelor herd down the line as a pair.
I can't think of a more perfect move for half of Houston's herd. By the time this would all would likely occur; Teddy, Nelson and Winnie will be weaned, likely Shanti's hypothetical future calf would be given time to grow up a bit. Any hypothetical calves in Columbus by that time will be a little older as well. Phoebe and Shanti would easily be considered post reproductive, leaving Columbus with a solid two or three breeding females AND a valuable young bull to move forward.
Connie and Hank would still work as their seperate group until she passes, but then Hank could either serve as a temporary mentor to Nelson and Frankie or be moved out himself (Once Groucho dies in Denver, Hank, as a friendly bull in his own right, would be a great choice to guide any future young bulls at the facility).
 
ZCChip said:
Read the 2022 list. It even gets more misleading and full of emotional ploys. Sabu is an unwilling breeder and the three older cows at Cinci zoo will be forced to be bred….????
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"Unwilling sperm donor" is crazy phrasing when Columbus AND Cincinnati have both emphasized that hes there to breed NATURALLY :confused:!? Most bull elephants WANT their sperm passed on, thank you-
Them deliberately spreading lies about Cinci's plans for their older girls too...ick.
Obviously these articles only draw attention from armchair activists who spew a lot of slander online, which zoos have been conditioned to accept for decades now and very few zoos have actually listened to their rhetoric. I hate giving their site traffic but the phrasing they use under the photo captions absoloutly kills me lol, always good for a laugh
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I see no reason why they couldn't be transferred even if Sabu successfully bred one or two of the girls.
At this point, I will only believe Rudy is pregnant if Columbus announces she is. I have found zero indication that she was even interested in Sabu, while Sunny is always close to him and has been confirmed to have been bred several times. As for Phoebe, she has been naturally bred before so I wouldn't be surprised if she had a calf naturally from Sabu.

Even assuming Rudy and Sunny both established themselves as breeders, bringing in Joy would secure a younger female for the breeding program that Columbus lost with Ellie. Not to mention that Tucker would just be the perfect candidate for Cbus' next breeding bull. Moving just Tucker is also an option, but when Houston's herd already will be needing split AND Joy has an existing breeding reccomendation, this move kills two birds with one stone so to speak. Not to mention how well it would work for Nelson and Frankie to potentially move to Cinci's bachelor herd down the line as a pair.
I can't think of a more perfect move for half of Houston's herd. By the time this would all would likely occur; Teddy, Nelson and Winnie will be weaned, likely Shanti's hypothetical future calf would be given time to grow up a bit. Any hypothetical calves in Columbus by that time will be a little older as well. Phoebe and Shanti would easily be considered post reproductive, leaving Columbus with a solid two or three breeding females AND a valuable young bull to move forward.
Connie and Hank would still work as their seperate group until she passes, but then Hank could either serve as a temporary mentor to Nelson and Frankie or be moved out himself (Once Groucho dies in Denver, Hank, as a friendly bull in his own right, would be a great choice to guide any future young bulls at the facility).
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Transferring them over at this point in time would be possible. Although waiting for Sabu to return to Cincy next year will probably have to be done first for space reasons.

I'm confident Phoebe will breed with Sabu if it comes down to that; it's just whether Columbus will let her. Genetically she's not the most valuable female and another son from her would just be another surplus male that would need a spot in a bachelor facility somewhere. A girl would obviously be best case scenario to continue her matriline but the chances of that are 50/50. I reckon if Columbus don't get any indication Rudy/Sunny are pregnant within the next few months, they'll have even more reason to allow Phoebe to breed once more with Sabu before he returns to Cincy.

If Phoebe, Rudy and Sunny all conceive to Sabu this would also make the move even more difficult as acquiring a further four elephants would give them thirteen total elephants!

The only thing that could delay this move is if Shanti is currently pregnant. Obviously they'd have to wait until she gives birth and then at least another eighteen months before a transfer. Looking at Houston's herd now I'd assume this is a period where their females have a little bit of a breeding break and they consider a splitting of the herd with some of their young cows approaching breeding age. But we obviously don't know that for sure.
 
Jambo said:
I'm confident Phoebe will breed with Sabu if it comes down to that; it's just whether Columbus will let her.
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Last I'd heard, Phoebe having another calf is the plan. Before she and Frankie were introduced I heard from a staff member that they were considering AI with Sabu, but obviously they saw the benefit of giving her a chance naturally. Personally I think Phoebe's history of male calves is just a little too strong to allow her to give birth again (ANOTHER male into the Motek/Warda line...) but clearly Columbus sees otherwise. Fingers crossed that her final calf is a SURVIVING girl!!
Jambo said:
If Phoebe, Rudy and Sunny all conceive to Sabu this would also make the move even more difficult as acquiring a further four elephants would give them thirteen total elephants!
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I definitely think if Columbus would want to make this move soon, then they'd have to consider moving out Hank. I know hes the most suitable companion for Connie, but she likely wouldn't struggle in a fully integrated herd for the rest of her days. Columbus likely be able to accomodate the larger herd at this time, but it would certianly be a challenge.
It would probably be better (and more likely) for Houston to wait until Thai's passing to make any decisions. Columbus wouldn't "need" a new bull for a few years if the girls have calves. This would give Frankie and the other youngsters at Houston time to wean and Shanti to have/raise her likely final calf. I remember about a year or so ago iirc there was discussion of Nelson being seperated from Shanti so she snd Thai could be placed together, so they were at least trying to get her pregnant at that time. But if she failed to become pregnant its possible that Houston is deliberately preventing any pregnancies at the moment to prepare for a transfer in the near future, but of course it's impossible to tell right now.
Its really hard to anticipate what direction Houston is going in. They have two very sustainable lines to work with going forward, and theyve announced clear breeding "plans" for both lines. Its obvious ONE of them has to go, but which will it be...
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I definitely think if Columbus would want to make this move soon, then they'd have to consider moving out Hank. I know hes the most suitable companion for Connie, but she likely wouldn't struggle in a fully integrated herd for the rest of her days. Columbus likely be able to accomodate the larger herd at this time, but it would certianly be a challenge.
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If there *are* issues between her and Phoebe though, keeping her with Hank is probably the only realistic option unless they elect to hold two matriarchal herds which wouldn't be advisable management wise. Connie is 50 though, so I reckon they could afford to hold onto her until her passing before making any moves with Hank.
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
It would probably be better (and more likely) for Houston to wait until Thai's passing to make any decisions. Columbus wouldn't "need" a new bull for a few years if the girls have calves. This would give Frankie and the other youngsters at Houston time to wean and Shanti to have/raise her likely final calf. I remember about a year or so ago iirc there was discussion of Nelson being seperated from Shanti so she snd Thai could be placed together, so they were at least trying to get her pregnant at that time. But if she failed to become pregnant its possible that Houston is deliberately preventing any pregnancies at the moment to prepare for a transfer in the near future, but of course it's impossible to tell right now.
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I agree. Thai is currently 56! An incredible age for a bull; and he's currently surpassed Dahlip for the oldest bull elephant ever in the USA. Thai's in his twilight years now and considering his fairly well represented with plenty of daughters and sons to continue his genetics, I wouldn't be surprised if Houston are allowing him to have a break from breeding now.

Re. that discussion your bring up, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was Shanti AND Nelson being put in with Thai (minus Joy). People jumped to the assumption that it was for breeding purposes, but now looking back on it it could've also been an introduction of Nelson to his father and a social session between the two which is important for young calves.
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Its really hard to anticipate what direction Houston is going in. They have two very sustainable lines to work with going forward, and theyve announced clear breeding "plans" for both lines. Its obvious ONE of them has to go, but which will it be...
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Usually from what I've seen zoos retain the larger line. In Houston's situation they have two options (keep in mind Methai stays either way):
1. Tess, Tueplo, Tilly and Winnie
2. Shanti and Joy

Sending Shanti and Joy away makes more sense as both females are of reproductive age and two cows would be easier to introduce to any pre-existing herds within the region compared to four. Presuming Tucker also leaves in this scenario, Houston are left with five cows (plus young Teddy and Baylor), and can then go and acquire a new breeding bull to breed with Tupelo, Tilly and Winnie.
 
Why all this talk about Houston moving elephants to Columbus? There's no evidence whatsoever that such a move is in the works, or will ever happen. Houston hasn't even indicated that they'll be transferring out any elephants. There's a point to speculate, but I think this discussion has gone way past that point.
 
Neil chace said:
Why all this talk about Houston moving elephants to Columbus? There's no evidence whatsoever that such a move is in the works, or will ever happen. Houston hasn't even indicated that they'll be transferring out any elephants. There's a point to speculate, but I think this discussion has gone way past that point.
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Dude, chill out. They're just discussing what would be the best genetic opportunities for the Houston herd.

Goodness, I've never met a forum with members so fussy about what other users want to talk about before I joined ZooChat.
 
Neil chace said:
Why all this talk about Houston moving elephants to Columbus? There's no evidence whatsoever that such a move is in the works, or will ever happen. Houston hasn't even indicated that they'll be transferring out any elephants. There's a point to speculate, but I think this discussion has gone way past that point.
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This is a thread dedicated to speculation and discussing potential ideas. No one ever said it was 'going to happen'. It's called speculation for a reason.

Obviously Houston will have to eventually split their herd if they want to continue breeding so it's not like we're discussing unrealistic moves too.
 
Jambo said:
Connie is 50 though, so I reckon they could afford to hold onto her until her passing before making any moves with Hank.
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Oh totally. Based on average lifespans, I think we can expect Connie to maybe live about 5-6 more years. By the time she passes Frankie will definitely be able to socialize with Hank. We know from his experience with Beco that being with a younger male is of benefit to him, so he'll almost certainly be able to be kept at Columbus until Frankie would be moved out at least unless space becomes an issue.
Jambo said:
People jumped to the assumption that it was for breeding purposes, but now looking back on it it could've also been an introduction of Nelson to his father and a social session between the two which is important for young calves.
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That could very well have been the case. It could have been for both purposes too, socialization for Nelson, a chance to breed Shanti AND a chance for Nelson to witness natural breeding.
Jambo said:
Obviously Houston will have to eventually split their herd if they want to continue breeding so it's not like we're discussing unrealistic moves too.
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Columbus also seems like one of the most likely candidates for the three to transfer to. The only other two facilities that would even be realistic for them would be Miami and Tulsa. But both of those facilities have what Columbus does not: a long term breeding bull. Given previous breeding reccomendations, I dont think a move to Columbus is out of the question by any means. We're definitely not too far out on a limb here.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Columbus also seems like one of the most likely candidates for the three to transfer to. The only other two facilities that would even be realistic for them would be Miami and Tulsa. But both of those facilities have what Columbus does not: a long term breeding bull. Given previous breeding reccomendations, I dont think a move to Columbus is out of the question by any means. We're definitely not too far out on a limb here
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I agree Columbus makes the most sense overall as both herds would be benefited in a variety of ways. Columbus needs a long term breeding bull - Tucker provides this. They also need additional cows to help continue breeding there long term (especially with Rudy and Sunny not proven yet) - Shanti and Joy provide this too. And Frankie gets a playmate of the same age in Nelson which would be extremally beneficial to his social development going forward.

Both Miami and Tulsa are other options but I reckon Tulsa's the only other facility that would be willing to take on Tucker too. In both situations too Shanti and Joy will be the only breeding females. Imo these females would do better integrating into an already cohesive herd rather than starting their own themselves. I'd also much rather Ongard moves out of Miami to a large breeding herd somewhere (like ALS or Houston) where his genetics can be properly represented. Another dark horse would be LA if they'd be willing to give Billy the chance to naturally breed with Shanti and Joy.
 
Ongard
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I hope that is the case, but they need to get Ongard out of there before that happens. Hes way too valuable to let live in a BACHELOR facility...
However another solely bachelor facility is exactly what NA needs for sure!
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Ongard is actually owned by another AZA facility. Which I unfortunately have forgotten again! I would say Denver??? So I am sure he will be moved at some point. They have a huge investment in him with importing him from Australia and he is unrelated to any elephant in NA.
 
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