There we are then, someone sensible and who knows his stuff confirming this, parents taking their children to a zoo do not deserve to be pestered by animal rights extremists, also by the same token a respectable zoological garden does not deserve to be picketed , however this will surely escalate if we are not careful.
Edinburgh Zoo Red River Hogs culled
- Thread starter Nisha
- Start date
I'm not sure if that's true, it's bad publicity no doubt but I don't think we need to be too alarmed.
I can't remember exactly what it was that caused Protesters to picket zoo entrance gates some years ago. There may have been some particularly active anti-zoo movement at the time, causing these demonstrations. As well as general anti-zoo feeling against the bigger zoos, I seem to remember the small zoo at Southport, which has since closed, also came under a lot of attack from these people because of the perceived poor conditions there.
I don't think this bad publicity about the Hogs at Edinburgh will create quite that sort of backlash reaction, though they may need to tread carefully for a while with no more blunders publicity-wise to allow this to blow over. Presumably that will mean somehow finding homes for the younger litter of RR Hog piglets they still have as now their actions will be scrutinised carefully.
I don't think this bad publicity about the Hogs at Edinburgh will create quite that sort of backlash reaction, though they may need to tread carefully for a while with no more blunders publicity-wise to allow this to blow over. Presumably that will mean somehow finding homes for the younger litter of RR Hog piglets they still have as now their actions will be scrutinised carefully.
Firstly, regarding human rights, I totally agree that we all have a right to free speech (on past threads I've defended the principle strongly). It's just my opinion that your snide comment was not worth saying and added nothing to the debate.
I think you've got confused by my reference to Animal Rights -I was making the point that the poster of that name had made his points well and in a reasoned way (regardless of whether you agreed with them or not). I was not suggesting that your sympathies lie with "animal rights groups". Personally, I'm not 100% sure of my opinion on this issue -though I concur that Johnstoni* made some very good points
It would be very naive to think that the opinions of a zoo enthusiast don't occasionally coincide with thoe of the "antis". Life isn't always black and white.
For the record, I just think Twycross has been badly run over the last few years in terms of expansion, improvements and development priorities -the animal husbandry has luckily, thanks to the good work of the keepers, not really been impacted. I think the management should get its act together, not that the place should be shut down -there's not a lot of common ground with the antis there!
I'll stop now because I'm flying off thread.
* that's the poster, not the Crocodile or Okapi
Secret Squirrel
Well-Known Member
Not just 'traditional' zoos either. I remember in my time with WWT a vocal group of protestors blocking the entrance, some wearing bird costumes with targets and covered in 'blood', attempting to deter visitors from entering. This was over the very busy Easter weekend and caused me something of a challenge to muster the vols etc and keep business as usual.
To be honest I can't remember what they were protesting against either. We kept everything polite and professional and they eventually went away.
Very possibly, that was another situation that caused a big furore.
I think the general picketing of zoos was probably due to one(or more) of the various reports on the welfare of animals in Zoos that are brought out periodically. It was a troubled time for zoos, London faced closure and several other zoos were almost forced by public pressure to phase out their Elephants and Polar Bears.
Secret Squirrel
Well-Known Member
That's possible yes, although the Ruddy Duck thing had been going for some time at that point already. The protestors would have been outside the wrong reserve as I wasn't at Slimbridge, but a little matter of geography wouldn't have mattered to them I suppose (nor to the Ruddy Ducks getting frisky in Spain!)
I do think the media like to promote these sorts of stories, whether it's been a slow day in the news room or the politicians have been too quiet to be newsworthy. It saddens me that more press (and discussion) time can be given to the cull of two RRH piglets at Edinburgh Zoo while today's story about China's zoos being pulled up for abuse will very likely be forgotten by most people within days.
note that two of Animal Rights' three posts on this thread aren't actually his own words, they are largely cut-and-paste articles from other internet news sites (not that he is attempting to pass them off as his own, simply that the fact they are quotes isn't immediately obvious)Shorts said:
This thread is just like having a group of people debate on human abortion.
I'm not saying this is bad or good to be honest but a huge difference in opinions.
BTW I'm sorry for bringing it up I just couldn't resist.
That is actually a very good point! (and one I hadn't thought of before). I'd love to mention this to all of the people who are 'disgusted' etc, but it seems to have really died down on facebook now and I'd rather just let it blow over
Animal Rights
Well-Known Member
This thread is just like having a group of people debate on human abortion.
I'm not saying this is bad or good to be honest but a huge difference in opinions.
BTW I'm sorry for bringing it up I just couldn't resist.
("The relationship of human abortion to animal rights was discussed in 1977 by the American astronomer and science populariser Carl Sagan in a book called 'The Dragons of Eden' which won the Pulitzer Prize. Sagan was in favour of animal rights and was one of the earliest supporters of what is now called the Great Ape Project that seeks to grant human rights to Great Apes. After his death, his ideas were further elaborated in a compendium called 'Billions and Billions'. It has also been discussed at great length by Gary Francione, an animal rights scholar in USA. See here : FAQs | Animal Rights: The Abolitionist Approach
There is nothing wrong about it, nothing bad about it and no reason why such a comparison ought not to be invoked. Humans are animals after all and this is a matter of life and death. The discussion may well blow over but the animals are gone forever and the discussion will start again once a new culling incident takes place. " This incident and the Magdeburg Zoo event are examples of baby killing which would be considered unacceptable if you applied them to humans. But the world is still anthropocentric, even though we like to pretend otherwise. We are pretty ruthless with each other as the latest Wikileaks disclosures show. If there can be 15,000 unaccounted for human deaths, small wonder that we kill tiger cubs and piglets.
The above is my own comment, not cut-copy-paste from any website. Just to allay confusion in case it is not obvious who has stated the above views.)
Rhinopithecus
Active Member
It is not longer true that all RRH in Europe are very inbred. Indeed vast majority originate from a single pair imported down in the late seventies (including Edinburgh stock). Since 2008 however there are unrelated RRH imported from Los Angeles at Wroclaw ZOO (those are F1 after wild caught parents). The had bred twice already and first born sows from 2009 had been already moved to Landau and 2.2 born 2010 await decision from the EEP coordinator.
Although this is early days the EEP is planning to bring in more unrelated animals, this time from other US zoos.
That all means that there will be reduction in numbers of the "old line" animals over a time. One of the reasons of changein the programme from ESB to EEP was just to stop expansion of RRH and save some space for probably more threatened tropical pigs like Visayan Warties or so.
On the other hand the status of RRH in the wild was not critically evaluated within the last twenty years. Everyone keeps on saying - they are not threatened.. I'm yet to see a large animal living in the west african rainforests that is totally safe. The forest cover disappears very quickly and the RRH doesn't live on the ricefields. Luckily we have the west african ones in captivity (P.porcus shows like African buffallo a clinal variation in pelage colour and size from the west towards the east and south).
Although this is early days the EEP is planning to bring in more unrelated animals, this time from other US zoos.
That all means that there will be reduction in numbers of the "old line" animals over a time. One of the reasons of changein the programme from ESB to EEP was just to stop expansion of RRH and save some space for probably more threatened tropical pigs like Visayan Warties or so.
On the other hand the status of RRH in the wild was not critically evaluated within the last twenty years. Everyone keeps on saying - they are not threatened.. I'm yet to see a large animal living in the west african rainforests that is totally safe. The forest cover disappears very quickly and the RRH doesn't live on the ricefields. Luckily we have the west african ones in captivity (P.porcus shows like African buffallo a clinal variation in pelage colour and size from the west towards the east and south).
Hmmm ......Christmas is only a few weeks away.
The Peccary population at Wellington Zoo used to undergo a dramatic reduction at this time of the year. Many years ago, of course
The Peccary population at Wellington Zoo used to undergo a dramatic reduction at this time of the year. Many years ago, of course
we could rephrase that; Would they dare put a 2nd litter down after what happened last time? My guess is No, so perhaps new homes will be found for these, or maybe they will keep them. And will they let the parents go on breeding after all this?
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Cheetah fan
Well-Known Member
I understand your point fully and frankly there's a couple of species I don't agree with and don't understand why there aren't stricter rules on there breeding but really if we take the animals into captivity we take control over there care. With the Red River Hogs I have seen a couple of collections and aren't fussed either way about them. It does concern me however that the zoo seemingly just decided that these babies weren't even good enough to be allowed to grow up. I wouldn't object if there was proof that the zoo tried unsuccessfully to re-home them to another/new collection but I couldn't see any.
This species forms a very good zoo exhibit at minimal cost- even including the building of an adequate enclosure for them, and even if they were featured on zoo surplus lists without any takers, I still think there are other zoos/parks in the UK which don't currently have this species (there are still plenty) and that somewhere would have offered to take them had Edinburgh made a real effort to circulate all the other UK collections about the issue. I believe Euthanasia was just an easier option in this case...
There is often not a great deal of communication between zoos, even ones quite close to each other, and situations have certainly arisen where one zoo is unaware of surplus animals at another zoo, which they would have willingly have taken -had they been aware of the situation.
Still, lets see what happens to the current litter(is it three males?)
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johnstoni
Well-Known Member
I think the problem is that only the EAZA surplus list can be used for trying to rehome EEP species, and it would appear to me, in contrast to other collections with large groups, that Edinburgh either didn't have the space, group cohesion, spare enclosures, or simply the will, to keep the animals they had bred. Once told to cull by the coordinator, they would have been in a difficult postion. My view is that their position would have been difficult, but not impossible, and that defying a recommendation to cull by choosing to hold your own surplus stock is unlikely to result in any serious sanctions.
In terms of simply rehoming to a collection that wants red river hogs, again this is about control of managed species, a collection without this species would first have to apply to join the EEP for it before recieving any.
In terms of simply rehoming to a collection that wants red river hogs, again this is about control of managed species, a collection without this species would first have to apply to join the EEP for it before recieving any.