ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2022

Zoofan15 said:
A Silverback is thought to bring stability to a troop, though the priority has been to get the juveniles to the age of independence rather than risk bringing in a new male. London Zoo have had the worst luck with gorilla and the last thing they need is a PR debacle.

Now Alika is seven and Gernot is six; they could look at shifting Gernot into a bachelor troop with other young males. He’s still 4-6 years away from being able to command his own troop and retaining him at London is simply delaying his mother (aged 29) and half sister from breeding again.

They could retain Alika to breed in the troop, though this would put Effie at a social disadvantage. Mjukuu has traditionally been the favourite female of previous silverbacks and would have a closer bond within the mother-daughter dyad she holds with Alika.
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redpanda36 said:
A new silverback has been recommended and is due.
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Pertinax said:
I'm wondering if Gernot might join similar-aged young males Shufai & Lope at Twycross when their new gorilla exhibits are completed, as bachelor quarters are planned. The problem is it that won't be for a while yet...seems the most logical as if not there, he would need to go abroad possibly.
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It’s possible than London Zoo might split them into two troops with the new silverback integrated with Effie and Mjukuu; and Alika and Gernot living together for companionship prior to their transfers - assuming Alika won’t remain in this troop for reasons listed above and from a genetic perspective. She and her mother are from a well represented line and would both be breeding with the same silverback.
 
Lafone said:
it doesn’t matter how modern the buildings are it’s a matter of the listing regulations.

They are really strict and the expense of changing the buildings within them is why the elephant house at whipsnade is just standing around doing nothing for example.

It’s a matter of law not will.

What are Listed Buildings? How England's historic buildings are protected | Historic England

We used to live in the next designation down from listing and we had heavily regulations on what colour your doors could be and what windows you could have and even the size of a window box - frankly it was a pain in the neck. And that wasn’t as strict as listing is.

Of course the upside is it protects significant buildings from being turned into Mac Donald’s every 10 seconds but it’s not easily worked around and the costs are prohibitive.

Even if people think a building is modern and it sucks once it is listed in whatever grade there are very stringent protections and regulations in place backed up by the law. So the reality is these buildings can often sit pretty neglected particularly when not a danger to anyone and where they have no commercial interest.

Plus you can guarantee that as soon as anyone went to do anything to these buildings some body or other would whip the popular media into a frenzy over how it was all an outrage to the elephants that fought in the war and lived through the blitz - the usual horse crap people produce here when the idea of ‘history’ comes up.
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You call it ‘history’ I call it heritage. You should be careful what you wish for because once it’s gone we can’t get it back..
 
I don't dispute the value of heritage or history. I don't like it being badged with an agenda. And in fairness I was explaining why it can't all be pulled down randomly and also not advocating for that to happen. Which just goes to show :).
 
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Zoofan15 said:
It’s possible than London Zoo might split them into two troops with the new silverback integrated with Effie and Mjukuu; and Alika and Gernot living together for companionship prior to their transfers - assuming Alika won’t remain in this troop for reasons listed above and from a genetic perspective. She and her mother are from a well represented line and would both be breeding with the same silverback.
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Gernot will be seven this year and so at a minimum, he can be transferred to a bachelor group this year. Maybe it would work better if he was sent to be in a bachelor group with other males his age. The US has plenty of candidates.

London would probably look to retain Effie for further breeding as she represents a different line compared to mother and daughter, Mjukuu and Alika.
 
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Jambo said:
London would probably look to retain Alika for further breeding as she represents a different line compared to mother and daughter, Effie and Mjukuu.
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Alika (2014) is the daughter of Mjukuu (1999); Effie (1993) is unrelated.

From a genetic perspective, it would be better to retain both adult females and transfer the adolescent female (Alika) as this would mean the new silverback wouldn’t be breeding with a mother and daughter (direct relations) and the unrelated female wouldn’t be a social outsider to the mother-daughter dyad.

Both female lines are relatively well represented, so transferring Alika for the sake of diversity is kind of a moot point (especially given the overcrowding in European zoos); but given that she could be replaced with a third unrelated female, that would be the ideal from a genetic diversity perspective and a social perspective.
 
Lafone said:
it doesn’t matter how modern the buildings are it’s a matter of the listing regulations.

They are really strict and the expense of changing the buildings within them is why the elephant house at whipsnade is just standing around doing nothing for example.

It’s a matter of law not will.

What are Listed Buildings? How England's historic buildings are protected | Historic England

We used to live in the next designation down from listing and we had heavily regulations on what colour your doors could be and what windows you could have and even the size of a window box - frankly it was a pain in the neck. And that wasn’t as strict as listing is.

Of course the upside is it protects significant buildings from being turned into Mac Donald’s every 10 seconds but it’s not easily worked around and the costs are prohibitive.

Even if people think a building is modern and it sucks once it is listed in whatever grade there are very stringent protections and regulations in place backed up by the law. So the reality is these buildings can often sit pretty neglected particularly when not a danger to anyone and where they have no commercial interest.

Plus you can guarantee that as soon as anyone went to do anything to these buildings some body or other would whip the popular media into a frenzy over how it was all an outrage to the elephants that fought in the war and lived through the blitz - the usual horse crap people produce here when the idea of ‘history’ comes up.
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I am very well aware of the criteria and procedures governing listed building status. My hometown zoo has some 25-30 structures governed by cultural heritage. However, the latter status does provide incentives for public investment. I am unconvinced that on its own merits that the exhibits mentioned by me for ZSL/Regent's Park without that investment will be(come) anything but sad reminders of a different age. I wish it could be so different.
 
Jambo said:
They currently have seven males and after overviewing the list it appears Kiburi (2004) is the strongest candidate. He'll be eighteen this year; a perfect age to begin heading up a breeding troop; and is also the least represented in the European region.
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Kiburi is the most suitable candidate given the others are either past their prime or hand raised (or both); with the exception of his half brother (Ubongo), who’s 14 years old.

If life has taught London Zoo one lesson repeatedly, it’s the importance of a well respected silverback for the stability of their troop. An 18 year old male should have the experience to command the respect of the zoo’s two strong willed adult females.

It may also interest people to know that Kiburi is the younger (full) brother of Yeboah, who was London Zoo’s silverback before his untimely death. Therefore this match has essentially been made before from a genetic standpoint.
 
London must be close to endgame with their gorillas now, it can’t keep going on like this every few years. Nor can this be looked upon favourably within the governing bodies surely. Bad luck is one thing but where’s the long term stability?

Maybe they made a mistake all those years ago, and got rid of the wrong ape. Bring back the Orangs?
 
Panthera1981 said:
London must be close to endgame with their gorillas now, it can’t keep going on like this every few years. Nor can this be looked upon favourably within the governing bodies surely. Bad luck is one thing but where’s the long term stability?
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Imo they finally got it right with Kumbuka. He was an impressive male and an excellent leader. He successfully bred with both the females and was young enough to give every promise of a long and stable reign.

Whether the zoo could have detected the infection that lead to his death before it spread to the extent he had to be euthanised isn’t something I can comment on. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and with him only showing outward signs in the days prior, it’s probably reasonable to attribute this to bad luck - something they’ve sadly had plenty of.
 
Zoofan15 said:
It may also interest people to know that Kiburi is the younger (full) brother of Yeboah, who was London Zoo’s silverback before his untimely death. Therefore this match has essentially been made before from a genetic standpoint.
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Kiburi is a halfbrother of Yeboah. Yeboah's father was Arty, Kiburi's father is Buzandi. Incidentally there is a very slight relatedness between Mjukuu and both Kiburi/Ubongo- Jersey's Jambo features in both ancestry trees.
 
Pertinax said:
Kiburi is a halfbrother of Yeboah. Yeboah's father was Arty, Kiburi's father is Buzandi. Incidentally there is a very slight relatedness between Mjukuu and both Kiburi/Ubongo- Jersey's Jambo features in both ancestry trees.
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I was also surprised to learn Kumbuka and Mjukuu were related - Kumbuka’s mother is the half sister of Mjukuu (they shared a wild born sire named Kumba).

I suppose inbreeding is inevitable given how well this species breeds in captivity and how opportunities to receive new founders are few and far between.
 
Zoofan15 said:
It’s possible than London Zoo might split them into two troops with the new silverback integrated with Effie and Mjukuu; and Alika and Gernot living together for companionship prior to their transfers - assuming Alika won’t remain in this troop for reasons listed above and from a genetic perspective. She and her mother are from a well represented line and would both be breeding with the same silverback.
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They could indeed do that. If Alika is eventually moved as well, they would presumably get a third female to replace her by exchange. But I don't know what the timeframe on this might be. Will be interesting to see where this goes now.
 
Panthera1981 said:
London must be close to endgame with their gorillas now, it can’t keep going on like this every few years. Nor can this be looked upon favourably within the governing bodies surely. Bad luck is one thing but where’s the long term stability?

Maybe they made a mistake all those years ago, and got rid of the wrong ape. Bring back the Orangs?
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I agree. London Zoo had the best breeding group of orang-utans in the world, while it was relatively unsuccessful with breeding gorillas. Gorillas breed far more regularly at Howletts and Port Lympne.
 
Pertinax said:
They could indeed do that. If Alika is eventually moved as well, they would presumably get a third female to replace her by exchange. But I don't know what the timeframe on this might be. Will be interesting to see where this goes now.
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Duni (2013) at Cabarceno Nature Park could be a great choice. She’s nine years old and unlike Kiburi (2008), Effie (1993) and Mjukuu (1999), she doesn’t descend from the Jambo line, giving the troop genetic diversity. Her sire is wild born; and although her mother and Mjukuu are related through Kisoro, this is a very distant relation.

If Alika (2014) leaves the troop, London Zoo would be wise to think about succession when bringing in a new female. Effie and Mjukuu have around 10 and 15 years respectively of reproductive life left in them. An new female aged 8-12 would extend the reproductive life of the troop up to 30 years (during which time we’d expect further succession).
 
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Zoofan15 said:
Duni (2013) at Cabarceno Nature Park could be a great choice. She’s nine years old and unlike Kiburi (2008), Effie (1993) and Mjukuu (1999), she doesn’t descend from the Jambo line, giving the troop genetic diversity. Her sire is wild born; while her mother comes from the well represented (yet unrelated) Kibabu line.

If Alika (2014) leaves the troop, London Zoo would be wise to think about succession when bringing in a new female. Effie and Mjukuu have around 10 and 15 years respectively of reproductive life left in them. An new female aged 8-12 would extend the reproductive life of the troop up to 30 years (during which time we’d expect further succession).
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There are also two, now young adult, females within the UK, at Blackpool Zoo (Meisie and Moanda) that are still living in their natal group. Afaik they have no relatedness to Jambo or his line either, their parents are from Apenheul (father Bongo) and Munich(father Rutoutou).
 
Question is would it be wise to even breed with Effie again due to her not being able to raise 3 babies due to health issues? They got lucky with Gernot that Mjukuu just had Alika and stepped in to raise him, but they may not be so lucky next time.
 
LucasRyan said:
Question is would it be wise to even breed with Effie again due to her not being able to raise 3 babies due to health issues? They got lucky with Gernot that Mjukuu just had Alika and stepped in to raise him, but they may not be so lucky next time.
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Reading back through past threads, I understand that despite her first two infants being handraised, Effie was caring for Gernot and nursing him until Mjukuu chose to take over i.e. he wasn’t rejected and would otherwise have been continued to have been cared for by his mother (correct me if you know something that hasn’t been reported on here). This has happened in overseas gorilla troops also.

Especially if Alika is to remain in the troop, Effie should be allowed the chance to breed again from a social perspective. Ultimately, it’ll depend on the importance of her genetics, but I see no reason not too when there’s every reason to believe she (or Mjukuu) will successfully raise her next infant.
 
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