North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

ZCChip said:
it is possible yes. Unless she is at the Ark with her mother. I am saying the Ark and the circus are owned by the same entity. Val has been on the road before so it’s possible.
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How nice. That’s something I already don’t support but personal feelings aside, how realistic is it for Val to be breeding anytime soon? Personally I think she, her mother, her siblings need to go to an AZA accredited facility and get paired with a breeding bull especially with a bull who’s NOT related to the Vance line.
 
ZCChip said:
Whimpy is in her 50s so she may not be breeding anymore. She has a daughter at Rockton. But her younger daughters are sired by Tommy which is a problem as he is the only breeding bull there and Val needs to bred soon.
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Whimpy did have a calf though 2 years ago. Can Val breed with Tommy or is that her father? And how genetically valuable is Tommy?
 
John Marchwick said:
well, I already don’t support them then for using wild animals in a circus. I know her mothers wile born so that already to me indicates she needs to be bred ASAP.
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ZCChip said:
Whimpy is in her 50s so she may not be breeding anymore. She has a daughter at Rockton. But her younger daughters are sired by Tommy which is a problem as he is the only breeding bull there and Val needs to bred soon.
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John Marchwick said:
Whimpy did have a calf though 2 years ago. Can Val breed with Tommy or is that her father? And how genetically valuable is Tommy?
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Whimpy was wild born in 1970. She’s produced 4.3 offspring to date, the last was born in 2020 when she was 50 years old. All but the first offspring are surviving and her eldest daughter has produced 1.4 calves to date.

Val is Tommy’s first offspring. He comes from the well represented Vance line, but only has four offspring himself to date.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Whimpy was wild born in 1970. She’s produced 4.3 offspring to date, the last was born in 2020 when she was 50 years old. All but the first offspring are surviving and her eldest daughter has produced 1.4 calves to date.

Val is Tommy’s first offspring. He comes from the well represented Vance line, but only has four offspring himself to date.
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How genetically valuable is Tommy though as I heard he isn’t hardly at all. If we can I’d rather get Val OUT of the endangered ark foundation just because. Maybe she could go to the Tulsa Zoo and be apart of the zoos soon to be breeding herd?
 
tigris115 said:
honestly, Tennessee would be great for this since they're an AZA accredited facility
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TES is AZA certificated, yes. And wouid have plenty of room. But it would be problematic as one Asian herd has/had TB (the Hawthorne herd), USDA wouldn’t let them assimilate with the other herd and the one Asian cow and one African cow has exposed to TB but has been tested negative as far I know. The sole Asian cow has been treated for TB then returned to the bigger habitat.
 
John Marchwick said:
How genetically valuable is Tommy though as I heard he isn’t hardly at all. If we can I’d rather get Val OUT of the endangered ark foundation just because. Maybe she could go to the Tulsa Zoo and be apart of the zoos soon to be breeding herd?
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Tommy is Vance x Birka. I guess he was all the Ark has.

Tulsa would be nice. Sneezy doesn’t have any live offspring so he’s still genetically valuable.
 
John Marchwick said:
Whimpy did have a calf though 2 years ago. Can Val breed with Tommy or is that her father? And how genetically valuable is Tommy?
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If the ark wants to breed Val now it would have to be with her sire, Tommy. Not ideal but it’s not the first time it has happened.
 
ZCChip said:
Tommy is Vance x Birka. I guess he was all the Ark has.

Tulsa would be nice. Sneezy doesn’t have any live offspring so he’s still genetically valuable.
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well Tulsa for sure should have the space for them if not now than in the very near future. They’re new Asian Elephant exhibit I heard will be 10 acres in addition I think they are using Sneezy as the breeding bull at least that’s what they said when I reached out to them anyway a couple months ago.
 
ZCChip said:
If the ark wants to breed Val now it would have to be with her sire, Tommy. Not ideal but it’s not the first time it has happened.
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Well let’s not breed Val with Tommy. I think the best thing for Val would be to move her and her mother and her siblings AWAY from the endangered ark foundation and bring them to another AZA facility to breed.
 
John Marchwick said:
How genetically valuable is Tommy though as I heard he isn’t hardly at all. If we can I’d rather get Val OUT of the endangered ark foundation just because. Maybe she could go to the Tulsa Zoo and be apart of the zoos soon to be breeding herd?
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Not very. His father sired 23 offspring between 1983 and 1996. That said, his offspring in turn have produced only a handful of offspring between them. Many of the bulls were castrated and several died prematurely.

It would be preferable to see Val transferred to an accredited zoo - ideally with her female line.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Not very. His father sired 23 offspring between 1983 and 1996. That said, his offspring in turn have produced only a handful of offspring between them. Many of the bulls were castrated and several died prematurely.

It would be preferable to see Val transferred to an accredited zoo - ideally with her female line.
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I agree. That’s why I thought Tulsa currently would be the best option. Tulsa wants to establish a breeding herd and I think Val and her family are the perfect candidates for that.
 
Problem is baby elephants draw money from public, how can a business plan be presented to the Ark so they can take care of the bottom line? They have all of the older elephants to feed.
 
ZCChip said:
Problem is baby elephants draw money from public, how can a business plan be presented to the Ark so they can take care of the bottom line? They have all of the older elephants to feed.
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Coming from Australasia, where our circus elephants were retired to accredited zoos a decades ago, it’s surprising to see operations like this continuing overseas and that there’s apparently still a thriving market for them.

Though the younger cows would be more desirable for the breeding programme, it’s a shame the older cows can’t be transferred to accredited facilities equipped for caring for geriatric cows to live out their retirement years.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Coming from Australasia, where our circus elephants were retired to accredited zoos a decades ago, it’s surprising to see operations like this continuing overseas and that there’s apparently still a thriving market for them.

Though the younger cows would be more desirable for the breeding programme, it’s a shame the older cows can’t be transferred to accredited facilities equipped for caring for geriatric cows to live out their retirement years.
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The Los Angeles Zoo is.
 
Mr.Ivory said:
Indeed Val has not as of yet had a calf of her own, there are currtnelt two bulls residing at the Endangered Ark her father Tommy son of Vance the full brother of Targa, and Obert who is planed to mate with her and her sister Dori Marie.
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I had forgotten about Obert!
 
Zoofan15 said:
Coming from Australasia, where our circus elephants were retired to accredited zoos a decades ago, it’s surprising to see operations like this continuing overseas and that there’s apparently still a thriving market for them.

Though the younger cows would be more desirable for the breeding programme, it’s a shame the older cows can’t be transferred to accredited facilities equipped for caring for geriatric cows to live out their retirement years.
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we don’t have that many circuses with elephants anymore. Carson and Barnes, George Carden and I am sure a few smaller circuses have one or two elephants. Those are still performing.
 
John Marchwick said:
I agree. That’s why I thought Tulsa currently would be the best option. Tulsa wants to establish a breeding herd and I think Val and her family are the perfect candidates for that.
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I also believe the moving of Whimpy’s matriarchal herd would be beneficial for Tulsa and SSP in general but if Tulsa were willing to house a larger matriarchal herd I would suggest moving Natasha, her daughters and granddaughters from the African Lion Safari to Tulsa. But I would move Sneezy to Fort Worth, and send Romeo to White Oak.
 
Mr.Ivory said:
I also believe the moving of Whimpy’s matriarchal herd would be beneficial for Tulsa and SSP in general but if Tulsa were willing to house a larger matriarchal herd I would suggest moving Natasha, her daughters and granddaughters from the African Lion Safari to Tulsa. But I would move Sneezy to Fort Worth, and send Romeo to White Oak.
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Wouldn’t it make sense to move just whimpy and her daughters? Rex is already in OKC. Rex and Natasha are Opal’s parents.
 
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