Captive Orca Population

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Just to add on to your statement, SeaWorld is still interested in taking in rescue killer whales even with the bad PR. For example they wanted to bring Toa to San Diego in 2021 which did not work out, but the breeding ban for better or worse will never be changed.
Seaworld also wanted to similarly bring in Pascuala, from Mexico back in 2007, although activists blocked her transfer. It's a real shame as there's a strong possibility she would've had a better chance of survival at Seaworld.

It's interesting to hear San Diego were the ones willing to acquire Toa though, especially with the ban in place (which also prevents imports). I suppose Toa could have been squeezed in as an exception; San Diego was obviously the closest SW facility to NZ.
 
Wasn't the timing of their announcement that they were transferring ownership of the LP whales really close to the announcement of Morgan's pregnancy? The original loan terms were for 25 years with an option to renew every 10 years I believe. That had to have been a factor given the backlash to Takara's pregnancy, which I believe was known well before they announced the plan to stop breeding. They leaned heavily into the 'last orca to be born at Seaworld' angle in all the PR videos of Kyara.

During the three months ended September 30, 2017, the company amended its existing agreement with Loro Parque concerning the orcas at that park. The agreement was amended in order to end its business relationship due to a contractual dispute. As a result, the company recognized an impairment loss of approximately $7.8 million during the third quarter of 2017.” (SeaWorld Form 8-K EX-99.1 SEC filing 7 November 2017)
From what I've heard, Morgan's pregnancy was the last straw for Seaworld. LP claimed it was an accidental pregnancy; but from what I've seen it certainly seems the pregnancy was intentional. Seaworld would've faced intense backlash, especially as they had indeed halted their breeding program.

There were questions at the time as to whether LP's orcas were apart of the ban initially, and there was widespread belief that they were. Morgan's pregnancy obviously went against this, and would've been one of the leading factors to SW wanting to end the relationship with LP, who obviously were trying to go behind SW's back breeding wise.
 
In ex trainer Hazel McBride's book, she claims that Morgan's pregnancy was accidental, that she mated with Keto though the gate while on a rest from birth control. She also claims that the sale of the whales was being discussed for months before Morgan fell pregnant.

I'm not sure how much I believe all that. LP had been putting out vidoes about how they planned to breed Morgan since the day she arrived at the park.
 
There is a report available, I can't remember who by, I think it is the NMFS? I have it saved somewhere that listed almost every captive orca birth, transfer and death and some of those dates are blatantly wrong, it is a government report and there are missing individuals but I am not sure if this is a lack of transparency on Seaworld's part or on the part of whoever put the information together.

Yeah, SW are super inconsistent with facts. Even some of their own papers give different birth/transfer dates for whales.
 
In ex trainer Hazel McBride's book, she claims that Morgan's pregnancy was accidental, that she mated with Keto though the gate while on a rest from birth control. She also claims that the sale of the whales was being discussed for months before Morgan fell pregnant.

I'm not sure how much I believe all that. LP had been putting out vidoes about how they planned to breed Morgan since the day she arrived at the park.

I heard the gate story from the YouTube documentary on Morgan. It definitely seems shaky, although I'd believe the claim that a sale was being discussed beforehand. It makes sense for a facility phasing out a species to allow another facility holding that species on a long term loan to just have them at that point.
 
In ex trainer Hazel McBride's book, she claims that Morgan's pregnancy was accidental, that she mated with Keto though the gate while on a rest from birth control. She also claims that the sale of the whales was being discussed for months before Morgan fell pregnant.

I'm not sure how much I believe all that. LP had been putting out vidoes about how they planned to breed Morgan since the day she arrived at the park.
That's what I heard too, but the fact that she received a 'break' from birth control probably says a bit. Could be for medical purposes of course, which we can't rule out, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was otherwise.
 
In ex trainer Hazel McBride's book, she claims that Morgan's pregnancy was accidental, that she mated with Keto though the gate while on a rest from birth control. She also claims that the sale of the whales was being discussed for months before Morgan fell pregnant.

I'm not sure how much I believe all that. LP had been putting out vidoes about how they planned to breed Morgan since the day she arrived at the park.

Don't know if I believe that either, given that Loro Parque released a video just before Morgan gave birth to Ula claiming that they knew when Morgan ovulated, if you know when an animal is going to ovulate, which they must have to know when she actually did, surely you keep males and females separated by more than a gate?
 
upload_2023-10-24_15-6-15.pngAccording to cetacean Twitter, Dora is close to giving birth. I don't recall Shanghai Haichang Ocean Park ever officially announcing her pregnancy, but it's clear as day now.
 

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Loro Parque was always a PR nightmare for SeaWorld and I doubt they would have sent anymore whales there even if they had continued to breed.

Marineland France reportedly refused to send their whales to LP on welfare grounds, so the Russian whales were always LP's last choice.

Is the information that ML decided against sending their orcas to LP in welfare grounds relieable? What is so horrible about LP and why were they a ‚nightmare‘ for Seaworld? My guess is that the orcas from
ML are going to the park that paid most…. not sure Animal Welfare had any role in this decision.
 
View attachment 664549According to cetacean Twitter, Dora is close to giving birth. I don't recall Shanghai Haichang Ocean Park ever officially announcing her pregnancy, but it's clear as day now.
Fingers crossed this birth is successful.

It's exciting time for the captive orca community - with at least four pregnancies at the moment (potentially more at Chimelong); and with the french orcas coming over to Japan.
 
Is the information that ML decided against sending their orcas to LP in welfare grounds relieable? What is so horrible about LP and why were they a ‚nightmare‘ for Seaworld? My guess is that the orcas from
ML are going to the park that paid most…. not sure Animal Welfare had any role in this decision.
Seaworld were in charge of operations there as the orcas were also owned by them, so they had to deal with all the issues that LP had with both the care the orcas received over there, and issues with the orcas themselves.

I guess money would have been a contributing factor, but then again this proposed move was being discussed over five years ago now. Considering the Japanese move is apparently a recent agreement, I would imagine that if money was the leading factor, they would've been in Japan already.
 
Here is the source. Unfortunately it's just a passing comment and not a discussion. I would have liked more information too. Whether you choose to believe the source or not is up to you, as it's an activist org, but they have been reliable in the past and they were the first to break the news of the sale to Japan.

I will say, since we were discussing it anyway, in McBride's book, although she remains very pro-cap, she was not complimentary about her time at LP.
 
Is the information that ML decided against sending their orcas to LP in welfare grounds relieable? What is so horrible about LP and why were they a ‚nightmare‘ for Seaworld? My guess is that the orcas from
ML are going to the park that paid most…. not sure Animal Welfare had any role in this decision.
Loro Parque overall is somewhat of a disaster in itself. The park is known for their past ties with illegal animal traffickers which is how they got rarer parrot species. And the quality of care for the whales is also very concerning. They have had many issues with water quality, have a very poor enrichment and training plan, and are overall rather bad at handling publicity. They illegally bred Morgan which directly violated EU regulations and have lost three of their whales over the span of recent two years: Skyla and Ula in 2021 and Kohanna in 2022. All babies born at Loro Parque besides Ula have been inbred and the park as I said previously is terrible at handling bad PR which has worsened their reputation in the animal rights community. They will actively attack ARA and work to entirely disprove every negative comment made about the facility compared to other places such as SeaWorld and Marineland France which tend to not retaliate in the same manner. Because Loro Parque actually responds to the ARA, activists have continued to attack them knowing there will be a reaction. Now Loro Parque’s name has been dragged through the dirt so if Marinlenad were to send their pod to the Canaries, the bad publicity would come to them like what Loro Parque is currently facing. By sending the whales to Japan, there is still pushback but much less the catastrophe that would be sending them to Loro Parque.
 
View attachment 664549According to cetacean Twitter, Dora is close to giving birth. I don't recall Shanghai Haichang Ocean Park ever officially announcing her pregnancy, but it's clear as day now.
Shanghai never officially announced her pregnancy but it is very clear that is pregnant. Hoping everything goes okay for mother and calf alike!
 
Shanghai never officially announced her pregnancy but it is very clear that is pregnant. Hoping everything goes okay for mother and calf alike!
Makes sense, with the exception of the Moskavarium, this seems to be the norm for orca pregnancies; only Seaworld and LP having previously publicly announced pregnancies prior to the actual birth.
 
Loro Parque overall is somewhat of a disaster in itself. The park is known for their past ties with illegal animal traffickers which is how they got rarer parrot species. And the quality of care for the whales is also very concerning. They have had many issues with water quality, have a very poor enrichment and training plan, and are overall rather bad at handling publicity. They illegally bred Morgan which directly violated EU regulations and have lost three of their whales over the span of recent two years: Skyla and Ula in 2021 and Kohanna in 2022. All babies born at Loro Parque besides Ula have been inbred and the park as I said previously is terrible at handling bad PR which has worsened their reputation in the animal rights community. They will actively attack ARA and work to entirely disprove every negative comment made about the facility compared to other places such as SeaWorld and Marineland France which tend to not retaliate in the same manner. Because Loro Parque actually responds to the ARA, activists have continued to attack them knowing there will be a reaction. Now Loro Parque’s name has been dragged through the dirt so if Marinlenad were to send their pod to the Canaries, the bad publicity would come to them like what Loro Parque is currently facing. By sending the whales to Japan, there is still pushback but much less the catastrophe that would be sending them to Loro Parque.

Not to disregard what you’re saying, but to be completely fair, Kohana did have a congenital heart defect, so regardless of where she lived she was most likely lucky to live as long as she did. It’s also interesting to think about how marine parks and aquariums should deal with ARAs, as they’re essentially target #1 right now. If Loro Parque’s strategy of trying to respond doesn’t work, what does? Ignoring didn’t work for SeaWorld after Blackfish (though for now they seem to be doing pretty well overall; I’m curious how much of that is 'cause of the orca phase out or if time played a larger role). Would upgrades to habitats help mitigate criticisms (ironic considering that Loro Parque’s plan to expand their orca pool complex is seemingly on ice)?
 
@BlobfishBoy brought up some very good arguments imo. Obviously it doesn't matter if marine parks with cetaceans respond to ARAs or not. So then I think it is better to face (and conterattack) the enemy, instead of saying yes and amen like a coward (like a very well known british zoo does imo).
Also, Loro Park might have choosen not always the right way on how they got some parrot species. But they had and still have a huge success in breeding and so in conservation. It is of course debatable, if this conservation value can outwight (or top) the bad reputation thru doubtful dealing.
 
@BlobfishBoy brought up some very good arguments imo. Obviously it doesn't matter if marine parks with cetaceans respond to ARAs or not. So then I think it is better to face (and conterattack) the enemy, instead of saying yes and amen like a coward (like a very well known british zoo does imo).
Also, Loro Park might have choosen not always the right way on how they got some parrot species. But they had and still have a huge success in breeding and so in conservation. It is of course debatable, if this conservation value can outwight (or top) the bad reputation thru doubtful dealing.
What is that british zoo? I have always been interested in zoo's responses to ARA's.
 
London Zoo. In short, because those circumstances are already discussed in other threads (Megafauna in city zoos, etc.): My opinion(!!!) ist not mainly based on publizised responses (I do not collect those, sorry) but on the facts how LZ followed ARAs "orders" no longer keep some specific species (although you will find people saying that those decisions were not influenced by ARAs).
 
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